Dangerous Faith
Dangerous Faith is a ministry that strives to light a fire inside of Everyday Christians to live radically for Christ so that we can glorify God by advancing His Kingdom.
Dangerous Faith
110: Orchid's Genetic Screening of Embryos, IVF, and Gene Editing
Nate Williams and the team discuss the practice of IVF, Orchid's new genetic testing of embryos, and gene editing. What are your thoughts? Let us know!
Welcome to the Dangerous Faith Podcast. My name is Nate Williams. With me, we have a small crew today, but that's all right. We're going to have a lot of fun Chloe, justin and Spencer and we are going to talk about IVF, a little bit of eugenics, some of the developmental screenings that are happening in a company called Orchid, mental screenings that are happening in a company called Orchid, and I'll open it up to the group. What are our thoughts on these various things? But Justin.
Speaker 3:So one thing I can say, just talking about eugenics and stuff like that, as someone who's had one handicapped brother that's passed away from Duchenne's muscular dystrophy and another one that is still currently alive with Duchenne's muscular dystrophy this stuff, the eugenics talk, just makes me really sick to my stomach because they, while they went through hardship my older brother went through hardship and stuff like that he deserved just as much a chance at life as everybody else did.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:So it is wrong, especially in the scenario of what we're talking about, before they even get a chance to take their first breath. It's wrong to take that chance away completely, I think those are good words and we're going to dive into that.
Speaker 1:First off, what is IVF? It's a common term. You may or may not know about it, but it's called in vitro fertilization and basically it's called in vitro fertilization and basically mature eggs are collected from ovaries and fertilized by sperm in a lab. Then a procedure is done to place one or more of the fertilized eggs, called embryos, in a uterus, which is where babies develop, and so that's again from the wording from the article. I might change some of the phrasing a little bit there. That's basically what it is, and oftentimes it's used under various circumstances.
Speaker 1:Let's say, a man and a woman can't have a child naturally, for whatever reason, they might consider IVF. Or maybe you might have some of these embryos and you might freeze them or store them for later if you don't want to have a child right now. I know that's a practice that's sometimes out there, but anyways, in comes a called ORCID and what the startup does is with IVF. It tests the embryos and it can identify a child's birth defects. I should probably put it this way. It uses statistics and probability. It can say, hey, this embryo could have such and such disease or could have such and such defect. It obviously doesn't know on the spot because the baby is still an embryo.
Speaker 1:But anyways, the test from ORCID can identify a child's birth defects, neurodevelopmental disorders, chromosomal abnormalities, pediatric and adult-onset cancers before a pregnancy begins. And so then you go back to the parent or the parents of the embryo, and then you can assist them in which embryo to choose for implantation. And then oftentimes the rest of the embryos are discarded or left frozen for who knows how long. Anyway, so you have IVF and then you have orchids, genetic testing, so that a mom and dad, a dad a mom, whatever scenario they can pick the embryo they want, based off of health reasons or whatever. So with that background in place, do we have any initial thoughts we want to share?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think the whole thing is just IVF included is just immoral and wrong.
Speaker 1:So you would say even before you get to ORCID and genetic testing the foundation of IVF itself is immoral.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I think that's kind of a hot-button topic when it comes to Christians, because most Christians that I know support it because like surface level it sounds great. Like, say, even a Christian couple is struggling to have kids, um, and they try for years and years and years and they can't have a kid. Ivf seems like a great option because they can have their quote unquote own kid with their own genes. Cause I didn't change my mind on this until two years ago maybe, like I was in complete support of it and then I just I found out more like about the process and just like the details and it was.
Speaker 2:it's totally inhumane like it's just the way that they throw out all the babies that are not used.
Speaker 2:It just breaks my heart. Um, and now, like with this added um, orchid part, it just like justin said, there are tons of people who are out there living with those kinds of you know, conditions, diseases, that are still living great lives, or even if they have passed, like they lived a great life, and I don't think and, like you said, it's a probability, so we don't even know that it's going to happen. Like I was saying earlier, something that I've learned in school is like only 20% of your age-related conditions are only determined 20% biologically and 80% by your lifestyle. So this child may have a really small chance of getting cancer, but if they go out and they smoke and they drink and they do all these terrible things to their body, like they're going to end up with cancer and then at that point it's just a waste, waste gotcha I think it creates a very scary future because it'll, if you look at it, it's very slippery slope because right now it's open to pretty much the elite, like the people I can afford it.
Speaker 4:But what happens when the floodgates open? The technology progresses and anybody can do it, all right, is there going to be stigmas raised to the parents that chose to have a natural child?
Speaker 1:that's a good, that's a good ethical issue. So then are the parents who don't do?
Speaker 2:this testing.
Speaker 1:Are they immoral? That's a good point.
Speaker 4:It could be switched around and then those children could be looked at as lesser than it could turn into a whole thing. It fills me with dread because it's just so inhumane. It's not how life is supposed to be, and one example in our community brought up is a kid in Coleman Hold on.
Speaker 1:Don't say that Do we? Colman is fine I I prefer not to get more specific.
Speaker 4:okay, colman well okay, so one of the high school bands in our area had a child that had muscular dystrophy and he, uh he. He passed away at a young age, but he lived longer than he was meant to and he brought so much joy to the kids and adults that were around him. You could never tell. So it's like in the future. Is that kid? Is he going to be lesser than?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great point.
Speaker 3:Something I'd like to ask y'all your personal thoughts. Say we throw out the ivf part. Say we throw out the. Obviously they're disposing of cell meeting or egg meeting, sperm, which is conception, which is a baby, no matter how long it's been like that. Let's just say they just take the testing part so you can have the statistics of your child. Is statistically likely for this. Is that something that y'all have a problem with, or do you think it's better to let God's plan be God's plan?
Speaker 1:So, I don't mind testing for testing's sake, because think about it this way we get testing done now and we're born.
Speaker 1:Hey, you're at risk for this, you're at risk for that, you might want to watch this, and you might want to watch that and change your diet, and so on and so forth. So, testing for testing's sake, I don't mind. The more information the better for that. But what happens is, for these kinds of issues, like we're pointing out and I know obviously you would agree with this, justin it's the step beyond, and then action is taken to choose some lives and not others. But yes, testing for itself I'm fine with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree with what Nate said, Like obviously we go through some extent of testing when we're born in utero. But I want to go back on something I said earlier just to kind of clear things up. But it kind of goes with what we're talking about. I'm only for IVF if it's one embryo at a time, because, like there's a way you can do that, which obviously that's not going to be what people want because it lowers your chance of having a child, but at least you're not throwing out 20 plus embryos.
Speaker 1:There is a ministry and church side to this because, chloe, you hit on something important. If IVF just included one embryo at a time for implantation and then see if that worked out, and then you try again and again, ivf would have no issues because that's your baby and you're seeing if that will work out and it'll develop further, et cetera, et cetera. But for cost purposes they don't do that right, and that's what we're talking about. They want you to get six embryos, 10, 15, whatever, in the hopes of the more you try, eventually a baby will fully, fully develop and be birthed. And so you're right, chloe, if it was just one embryo at a time, I don't think there's an issue.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I also want to highlight something you had just said, how, like with the cost, you can't do just one, it has to be many but the cost. That to me just makes me cringe a little bit, because it feels like we're just buying and selling a bunch of babies and that just does not seem ethical to me at all.
Speaker 1:It does seem crass to mention money, but I do again turning to ministry and church for a moment.
Speaker 1:We do need to be careful, balancing ethics, which obviously matters what is good, what is right, but also the fact that all around us there will be tons and tons of children born through this IVF process and if we're not careful with how we phrase things, it can I'm not saying it should it can come across as well that IVF child should have never been born. We don't mean that for sure. We don't mean that every child is a blessing from god. However, we're talking more about the practice. Any baby that is born from ivf praise god. We're thankful for them. We're talking about the embryos that are left over.
Speaker 3:Yeah, justin I think something that we can take time to point out as well is, if you really want to have a child and let's just say that you're normally not able to, or you're like me I'm single. I don't know what the future holds, I may stay single, but I still want children. There's foster programs. You can help take care of children, and that's very sadly. There are people as young as newborn infants who get abandoned. There are older kids that need homes, so we can also take this time to maybe go away from the IVF and point more towards adoption.
Speaker 1:Adoption foster care for sure. Thousands of kids in the foster care system.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and talking more about adoption, because I know I had said the cost part seems unethical, which obviously with adoption there is a price tag associated, so it can feel like that at the same time. But something that I really like that Allie Beth Stuckey says. She says that things like IVF and those kind of like Orchid, whatever creates a broken situation, but adoption redeems a broken situation and I really like that a lot.
Speaker 1:That is well put. I think that's a great quote. Adoption and foster care. One thing noted with price is we have to do what we can to lower the price of adoption, because sometimes that amount is just astronomical and also international adoptions can get quite expensive as well. So we want to encourage people to adopt.
Speaker 3:We also got to work on those prices um, something as you talk about foster care specifically and this is something that I think that we as Christians need to step up on Our foster care system in America in general is terrible. There are so many scenarios where kids get put in it, they are mistreated, sometimes they're sexually abused. It's just we do not. It's not even just a matter of proper precautions. We should take that and stuff like that, but we need to put more funding into that stuff to help care for these kids that don't have parents right now. And also, as Christians, step up and let's bring in some of these children. Even if you can't not planning on keeping them forever foster, bring some children into your home, even for a temporary amount. You never know what that could do to a child.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's true. I think foster care and adoption services need to be near and dear to the church and our hearts, because that's the example Paul always uses adoption.
Speaker 4:We are adopted into the family of God, so that should definitely be a soft spot for us, spencer I think that with the foster care system as it is now, it can at least, and then with adoption too, it puts so many things out of reach for people because we aren't given resources to actually go forward like. It would be so great if the church was able to fund adoption, that we could go to our pastors and that they had something set in place to where, okay, you can take this money that the church has been saving for this moment and that we we have programs in place where we talk to people, we talk them through the process of how it's going to be once you get the child, and them through the process of how it's going to be once you get the child and just a whole training.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's a great like.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's a whole different ministry that the church could bring up, instead of trying to get into ivf and like all this crazy stuff. That is just completely immoral. We can take that, say we don't want the world to look like this in the future, we want it to look like where we go, and we take the least of these into our homes.
Speaker 1:I think that's very well put. It's part of what we talk about being holistically pro-life. Sometimes, with the pro-life topic, we focus on abortion, and that is a big part of it. We are against abortion, we are for life. However, to be pro-life involves every facet of the family. We believe in marriage between one man and one woman.
Speaker 1:We think we need dads, fathers, to be present and active in the home, so we're pro-marriage, we're pro-foster care and adoption services, and so, like you said, there's different ways for the church to help out there. We are for resources for mothers who are scared when they're pregnant. They don't know what to do. They don't know, maybe, how to raise a baby. That's very intimidating. And so, again, pregnancy clinics. We're for all aspects of the family. That's what it means to be pro-life. But circling back to IVF and ORCID and genetic testing, but what about this? Someone says, well, uh, when it comes to cancer, when it comes to autism and those things, uh, I'm trying to not raise up a child who, let's say, down syndrome. That's very painful to go through. That's very, a lot of suffering involved with those things. Let's say they might not live very long after birth.
Speaker 1:Wouldn't it be more loving to bring a child into the world who would live longer? That would be one of their main arguments.
Speaker 3:So I can also speak on something like this. Okay, maybe not necessarily Down syndrome, but another part on the kind of spectrum there. I have a cousin who was born with high functioning autism. They had to teach her how to swallow, they had to teach her how to eat. If you would have seen her when she was much younger you would have never thought that she would be able to be in just normal society. But if you look at her now you could not even tell I'm very proud of her. You know she. She has come a very, very long way and you couldn't even tell now that very proud of her. You know she, she has come a very, very long way and you couldn't even tell now that anything's wrong with her.
Speaker 3:So this stuff is awful, but there are ways to help people through this stuff, to help them live a more normal life, whatever that looks like for that person. So just to give up on them like that, you know. I think that what if it with with my mother, with my, my second brother that was born a little tiny fact. It is a super duper high chance if the mother has the a child that has muscular dystrophy, the chances of the next one having it, and even any after that if they're a boy. Girls can have it, but it's incredibly rare is incredibly high. I'm the only one of my mother's children that didn't have it. And to think that if my mother knew that and then aborted me, you know I wouldn't have had a chance at life because of that and then aborted my little brother, that's just that's sick. That's not right. That is playing God, just because you think something's going to be an inconvenience when it could be something amazing for somebody else.
Speaker 1:Well said.
Speaker 4:I would just ask them is that person's life worthless if they have issues, if they have complications? What do you think is going to happen to this world if there's no pain and no suffering at all?
Speaker 1:there would be it, it just it can't happen like there's nothing they're aiming for some type of utopia, but they're killing a lot of people to get there there's.
Speaker 4:It's like saying, okay, I'm going to get rid of this entire country because they produce this amount of crime yeah we can't, we can't play god, we aren't god and we we just have so many issues in this world that bring us, that make us stronger as people.
Speaker 2:So if we aren't strong people, then there's no point in all this is yeah, and I think the phrase that both y'all said is the key thing here playing god.
Speaker 2:I think that's the main part in this, um, but I think it's actually more loving to give a child who has down syndrome, who has, you know, whatever kind of disease condition. I think it's more loving to give them a shot at life because they're they're they're worth just as much as we are. You know, there's nothing, there's no value that's taken away from them just because they have a condition and um, I, uh, I could go on and on about this. Just because, like, just being in my field and working with patients who have, you know, awful things ataxia, like a stroke, paraplegic, like these things but the amount of times that I've seen them work through their issues and they might not ever get to 100% again, but just seeing the joy that most of them have because they're alive is just so beautiful it literally makes me want to cry. But yeah, they are not worth any less because they have brain problems or they have heart problems, like it's just yeah.
Speaker 1:I agree, and this is where, as Christianity fades in the West, it's going to look more and more like it did in the old Greek and Roman culture, where life was very cheap, the babies were left out to die by exposure. Girls, daughters, weren't very valued because people wanted sons and it was a dark, cruel world and Christianity, obviously, because of what Jesus has done, loves all of us, for God so loved the world, helped to change that, and so, as Christianity fades, some of those old moral standards are going to come back.
Speaker 3:Something I wanted to add on to what Spencer was saying of us trying to make that utopia not only a replaying God and that's wrong but it's kind of just fighting a losing battle. If you're trying to get rid of every single problem that will ever happen, let's just say you're successful. Something else will pop up. We do not live in a perfect world. We live in a broken world. From the second that Adam and Eve bit into that apple, we, we will, we will forever, until jesus comes back, be in a flawed world that will have problems. There will be something else that causes sickness, there will be something else that causes death. So why fight this losing battle?
Speaker 4:and let's care for these people who need care it's at the expense of other lives too, because even if, statistically, this baby's supposed to be perfectly fine, what if, instead of picking an embryo that was going to have cancer, you picked an embryo that had homicidal tendencies?
Speaker 3:that's a good point there's gonna be.
Speaker 4:You can't account for everything. Yeah, yeah, you just can't, and it's at the expense of killing off other life that could have come through. You're creating all these other issues that are unforeseen and, like you said, you're fighting a battle that cannot be won. It can't be won.
Speaker 2:The whole thing is just bred out of pride, I think it's. It's complete pride that you can just pick and choose the qualities that you want in a baby, as if it was all genetic and it's. It's not like everything I learned every single condition I learned at school. Um, it's always like, yeah, genes plays a part, for sure, but then it lists 10 other factors that are that are that actually weigh so much more into if they're going to get this condition. But also, just, we're like justin said, we don't live in a perfect world. We never will, no matter how hard we try.
Speaker 2:And there's something about suffering that's so beautiful because it just grows you as a person, and without this person suffering, I mean I don't. We've all noticed the people in this world who you can tell they haven't been there suffering. They've been fed everything on a silver platter to them and it's, it's so obvious and it's they're the most prideful people you'll meet. And then you meet people. I mean I don't know about y'all, but every single person I've met with Down syndrome has been the happiest, most fun people I've ever met in my life. The happiest, most fun people I've ever met in my life. And so just, I mean, I'm not. This might sound bad, but I would rather have that person than the prideful person who is given everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, same observation, chloe, and it's wonderful to see All right. So I think we've been pretty clear our thoughts on IVF. And then the genetic testing, which really would be something like Hitler's dream, like eugenics Get rid of those you deem unworthy of life. So, yes, not a fan of the genetic testing either. What about gene editing in general? This is a little bit of a curveball because I didn't tell y'all we'd be talking about this.
Speaker 1:There's something called CRISPR. Have y'all heard about it? C-r-i-s-p-r or whatever, if I have that correct. Like gene editing. Let's say it's removed from IVF. You have a baby in the womb and we get to the point where your own baby who's living? So again, the baby is going to be born. But you can start controlling eye color, you can start controlling height, maybe you can control for various things intelligence, intelligence, athleticism, so on and so forth. So the baby is going to live. So it's not an issue of abortion or not, but it's now. You can modify your baby to have some more desirable characteristics a boy or a girl. Thoughts there about gene editing from an existing baby.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know much about this topic, but To me it just sounds like a video game or something where you're just creating a character You're literally just creating a character and to me, like I mean, I haven't had any kids but I feel like there's just something so like nice about the surprise of what your child's going to look like and what features they're going to have, and like which jeans you gave them, which ones the father gave them. Like it just takes away that whole thing and I'm not like obviously that's not like a moral thing.
Speaker 1:But it takes away some of the wonder yeah Of parents and children, justin.
Speaker 3:So I'm going to take a much probably harder stance on this one. I view that as a spit in God's face, because that is ultimately saying this creation you had in mind, I'm gonna change it. You made it wrong, I'm gonna make it right so, justin, I see what you're saying.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna push back a little bit and y'all jump in to answer me if you like. All right, but let's say, a baby is born without an arm or a baby's born without a leg, and so what you do is there are prosthetics, right, there are things you can give the child to to kind of make up for that and and help to make the child whole so you can get some type of arm, some type of leg. Someone could say, well, if it's okay to do that, why would it not be okay to do some of the gene editing which might fulfill some of those same purposes?
Speaker 3:Well, so here's something I would say to that and this is something that I've talked about a lot because it's affected me I would say to that and this is something that I've talked about a lot because it's affected me Sometimes God puts us in situations to go through things that are hard and challenging, because it not only strengthens us as a person, it strengthens your testimony, the pastor, the guy who does emotional speaking, who has no arms or legs.
Speaker 2:If y'all know his name. Please chime in Nick. His last name is really confusing Nick V Nick really confusing.
Speaker 3:But no, his testimony is incredible. It is so easy for you or I, who everybody's gone through hardships, so don't think that I'm trying to down anybody for the hardship they've gone through.
Speaker 3:But it is super easy for us to say that we love Jesus when we're on the other side of things, but these people will still suffer through the stuff that they suffer. Maybe that prayer that they pray for that cure or whatever will never come through. But if you still praise God through that big storm that is constantly in your life, that testimony is powerful. It hits people much more than say something like mine.
Speaker 4:Amen. I think if we keep pushing the envelope in this way, it's going to turn into some situation where we're going to be creating professional singers, professional players.
Speaker 4:You just create the next nba team you just create what your version of life should be like, and like what where this person should go because of where they, their genetics, are based off, and that's that's terrifying like you could in the future you, by the time we're in our 80s we look around and everybody around us is just built for a specific purpose so I agree with y'all.
Speaker 1:I'm just giving subtle pushbacks to see where the conversation goes. But, spencer, okay, let's say one day you have a kid and the kid shows promise in sports or singing. Well, you then spend money and say here are some lessons, here's some training, go off to this camp, take these classes, whatever. What if the argument could be all right, well, you're already doing all that stuff when they're born. What about giving them a little boost from the genetic side of things as well?
Speaker 4:Okay, if everybody's special, then is anybody really special?
Speaker 1:They might say babies, babies, they could be optimized I hate that word. They could be optimized in different ways. So you want, you know, maybe a power lifter, you know.
Speaker 3:And then maybe justin with his great acting skills, want someone who can sing really well, and and so that your children wouldn't be the same so with kind of what you were saying earlier, I I'm going to be honest with you to to make a kid go early to start saying I'm going to make you be this. I don't necessarily agree with that either. I think that as a child grows, you can have them learn all sorts of different skills right. So there's nothing wrong with say you have your child do athletics right. Just because you're having your child do athletics, it doesn't mean like well, you're going to grow up and you're going to be a big athlete. No, you can have a child learn dancing and acting. You can have a child learn cooking. You diversify the things that they know, help them learn these skills and maybe some of that stuff blossoms into a career. Instead of saying I want you to do this from the day that you're born, so you're going to grow up and be this.
Speaker 3:I don't think that's right and maybe I misheard what you were saying, but I thought that's what you were saying.
Speaker 1:I think y'all are thinking. Well, it's a parent trying to control the life of the child. Yeah that's not's not. That's not the parent's business.
Speaker 4:Where does it stop to the point where parents aren't even involved? What? What is stopping it from getting to the point where companies, governments, people with ulterior motives can just do this on their own?
Speaker 1:so you're saying a world where the decisions even beyond the parents, the government could be creating. I imagine this could happen, like super soldiers.
Speaker 3:Yes, captain America.
Speaker 1:We're going to get him Justin's excited for Captain America, where it's like now it's not just parents, it's companies, government. Yeah, you can start a concern.
Speaker 4:Yeah, the government could just go into a sperm donor place and then they could take it to eggs and people aren't even involved. All the embryos and storage, it's just all science and there's no human anatomy actually being involved in childbirth.
Speaker 1:I think ultimately, y'all crush this from a spiritual perspective. It's what y'all said we want to play God and we want to be God. We want to build utopia. We want to build humanity in our image. We want to all the things that were God's responsibilities we want to take upon ourselves, and we've used science and technology and gene editing and orchid genetic testing as our way of playing God, and that never ends well.
Speaker 2:I also just wanted to ask. I know you watched the video, but y'all remember why the woman who started it started it?
Speaker 1:That is a phenomenal point. Can you share?
Speaker 2:Yes, so the woman started it because her mom has a phenomenal point can you share? Yes, so the woman started it because her mom has a degenerative eye condition and that somehow inspired her to start this company where you can pick and choose to not have things like that. So people are firing back at her and being like, well, if they didn't have your mom, you wouldn't be here.
Speaker 1:Yes, because you would have seen an embryo like your mother's with a potential eye problem and you would have discarded it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sorry, I just thought about that.
Speaker 1:I forgot that that was a good point.
Speaker 2:Absolutely insane.
Speaker 3:Have you also thought about the fact that these people who go through these struggles are oftentimes that the people who make great advancements in helping people with those same?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:God may have you in place to struggle with this, so maybe that you can study, make a huge medical breakthrough and help solve these issues without having to do things like IVF.
Speaker 1:The mother that Chloe's talking about, who had the daughter who went on to found Orchid. You're exactly right that maybe her struggles with her vision helped her to raise such an incredibly intelligent daughter who, unfortunately, created Orchid, but such an intelligent daughter partly based off of her struggle. So you're right, you remove the struggle, like y'all are saying, and part of the beautiful growth of humanity also disappears.
Speaker 2:So good, good points and something else dumb that that girl said was like something along the lines of like sex is for fun and babies are for orchid, Like something like that.
Speaker 1:Yes, she did say something like that, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's just so messed up 1984., 1984, george Orwell what a book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, great thoughts y'all. Anything else y'all want to talk about? Or do you think we these topics? You could look into every scenario and talk about for hours. So we just generally do big topic, big picture type things with it. But anything else y'all want to mention or you think we covered broadly?
Speaker 2:the bases. I have a question maybe for the group. One of the comments I saw in the video was like saying how you're supposed to make babies is going to be called old fashioned in a few years, do y'all think?
Speaker 1:True.
Speaker 2:True.
Speaker 1:Yeah, think true, true, yeah, um, we're going to get to the point where we have the technology.
Speaker 3:in my opinion, from start to finish, as in from conception until birth, it can be done outside the womb something I would like to say for maybe anyone listening who maybe has some of these struggles that they're trying to hand pick out with the iv IVF and what was gene editing was the other one. If you struggle with a physical disability, mental disability, anything that you struggle with, know, at the end of the day, you're loved by us in this room, of course, but also you're loved by us in this room, of course, but also you're loved by god, and god has a purpose with you, no matter how hard it is yeah, well said justin going back to chloe's question, what she brought up, if making humans with sex is considered old fashioned, it's just the further unraveling of our society.
Speaker 4:And sex as it goes, because, like she said, like the lady from work it said, sex is for fun. And so, if sex is for fun, why does it? Why does marriage matter? Why does relationships with another person matter? It's just, it's just sex. There's no, there's no point. And it's just I mean, we've already seen it over the past century that the downhill spiral we've gone, but it's just a much deeper blow into sex and human relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's just society getting further and further away from God's will and God's plan for the world.
Speaker 1:And that's where, regardless of our thoughts on their theology, I think that is a strong area of the Catholic Church the natural family and their views of procreation, and so I think they do a good job there, where sometimes us Protestants, we can be all over the map when it comes to this stuff. So it's good for us to talk about and I'd be open to knowing your thoughts as a listener If you have any pushback which this topic can get hot and heated. People disagree on different aspects of it and, again, we do want to be mindful of all the babies being born in the church through IVF. We do need to keep that in mind how to stand for truth, but also to be gracious as well, because a lot of couples they suffer through infertility. It is a very real thing, so we need to be gracious too as we talk about all this.
Speaker 1:If you have any pushback or feedback, let us know. We're on social media and we have our website, dangerousfaithnet. You can go check that out. You can send an email through that, but anyways, let us know your thoughts. I'm open to pushback, all right, y'all. Anything else before we head off? Praise God, praise God. I think that is a great ending Y'all take care, praise God, praise God. I think that is a great ending. Y'all take care.
Speaker 4:We typically have several episodes a month and we'll keep doing that Until next time. We'll talk with you later. Thank you, the whole topic just fills me with dread.
Speaker 2:Fills me with anger.
Speaker 4:I mean, like I said, if you look at a future where everybody's just built for a specific purpose, built with a specific ulterior motive in mind, you're going to look at the people around you and you're going to be like Spencer is just terrifying.
Speaker 2:Well, no, I guess this is exactly true. I was going to say I wouldn't have a job if this thing became real.
Speaker 3:Wow, chloe, wow Chloe, that's not true.
Speaker 2:No, it's not, because injuries and Injuries and surgeries and age.
Speaker 3:I know Now they make them bones so strong, then they can break All right, so that will be our no osteoporosis, our Chloe ethical stance. You don't want everybody, oh, you got that on video Because we need PT.
Speaker 4:White Did you.