Dangerous Faith
Dangerous Faith is a ministry that strives to light a fire inside of Everyday Christians to live radically for Christ so that we can glorify God by advancing His Kingdom.
Dangerous Faith
108: Can Churches Grow Too Large? Thoughts on Megachurches
Nate Williams and the Dangerous Life Team discuss megachurches. Are they good? Are they healthy? Can a church be too large?
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Spicy Nate Coming in hot, coming in hot. There's a line, guys, and we can't cross it. Do you see this line? Do you see how it goes in all directions? Infinity.
Speaker 3:And cut. And go All right, guys, I got to go. Y'all have been talking too long, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Get out of here. All right, blake, focus, focus, focus, guys, focus, jeez, guys, focus, jeez. We might have to edit this out.
Speaker 4:Welcome to the Dangerous Faith Podcast. With me we have Blake, chloe, zeke, spencer and myself. My name is Nate Williams. We're talking about megachurches. What are our thoughts on? I guess different. Lots of different subtopics we'll cover, but different models. And are they biblical? Are they consistent with scripture? And so I'll just start it off there. The definition of megachurch, from what I found, is anything over 2,000 regular attenders. So we live in the Coleman area and I'm not going to mention specific churches, coleman, alabama. I'm not going to mention specific churches, but I think we have one or two. I'm hearing that is over 2,000 regular attenders. So I think we'll have, yeah, one or two megachurches. So just throwing it out there, from a numerical standpoint, is there a point where a church can grow to be too big? Or do we think, as long as everything's taken care of administratively, that churches can get infinitely large? What are our thoughts there, spencer?
Speaker 5:I think when a church gets too big to the point where the pastor can't meet with every single person that wants to join the church or learn more about the church, then it's gone too far.
Speaker 4:Okay, so the metric you would use is if the pastor can meet with all the members, all the regular attenders, to try to meet their needs, if they have questions or so more so from the standpoint of people coming into the church.
Speaker 5:So, guests, newcomers.
Speaker 4:Okay, all right, so that would be Spencer's metric. Anyone else so?
Speaker 2:wouldn't that metric be like, limited by how many people come in at once versus how many people are there?
Speaker 3:total.
Speaker 2:Or is that what you're saying? Maybe I'm confused, so like if you have a small church, but then, like, 100 people join at once. Your pastor can't meet all 100 of them. So is that now a mega church?
Speaker 5:I've just heard of stories people where they come to a large church. They get lost in the shuffle because the way that they can learn about the church isn't through direct means it's through like an app or something they put in. Oh, I'm coming in for the first time. I want to learn more it usually gets bucked to like an elder or whatever they call them yeah, administrate like nate said.
Speaker 2:So administratively, the pastor just gives away his responsibility to, like you said, an app or something.
Speaker 4:Okay yeah, okay. And Blake, what are your thoughts when it comes to churches growing? Is there a point where we're like, okay, maybe this is unhealthy.
Speaker 1:I agree with what Spencer said in that aspect too. I also think, if you've gotten to a point where you can't go up and critique your pastor or talk to him about a sermon after the sermon, when was the last time you critiqued, oh?
Speaker 2:I mean the rep is.
Speaker 1:Beep.
Speaker 3:Beep.
Speaker 1:Dude that. Okay, come on, that was innocent. That was innocent. The Pope is pretty like.
Speaker 2:That was not innocent.
Speaker 1:The Pope's pretty cool.
Speaker 2:When was the last time you critiqued your pastor? I'll ask again. I'll really.
Speaker 1:I think. I'm just curious if you have an answer to this.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to think I don't think I've really ever critiqued him or just being able to ask him.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah almost every, every, every sermon or every sermon especially if it's like a really good one I like to sit with him and talk about, like certain topics as opposed to his really bad ones.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean some of some of the sermons I just don't connect with and I'm just like I mean, maybe I just got to do some studying on my own. But then the ones that I do connect with, I'm like, hey, that was really cool, like I really like that. You emphasized that point. Just any time I want to just pick his brain. He's also like really busy and also he's really dry, so like conversation-wise he's hit or miss.
Speaker 1:I'll let you choose to leave, Look I say this because I know he listens and he knows my humor, and so this is my chance to get a dig at him without him absolutely just crumpling me to the ground.
Speaker 4:A dig from the distance.
Speaker 5:There's a comment section.
Speaker 4:Zeke and Chloe. What are your thoughts? Is there a point where a church is unhealthy due to size? No, we need to take over the entire world.
Speaker 2:World domination yes.
Speaker 3:I don't think there's like a specific number that's like this is too many. This is a mega church. It's unhealthy because I don't think that quantity equals like the health of a church necessarily, because I know of a lot of pastors who I follow listen to their sermons. They definitely have well over a thousand, maybe even 2,000 people.
Speaker 2:They definitely have over 2,000.
Speaker 3:Okay then, yeah, probably, I just don't know, but I really like their sermons and from what I hear about their church, it seems like a very healthy church to go to, and so, yeah, I don't think there's a specific number per se, so I'm not really sure what the other—.
Speaker 2:I'd probably take the Spencer route of there's certain things that when does the church become incapable of doing normal church functions?
Speaker 3:And meeting the needs of their congregation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's why I don't have a specific number, but more of I don't know. It's hard to really put words around.
Speaker 3:I think it's also kind of sad. I visited like 10 churches when I moved to Birmingham a few years ago and a couple of the ones I went to I knew it wasn't a bad church because I really enjoyed it when I went and it seemed healthy and I liked the messages. But something that really stood out to me is that I would go to these churches and nobody would say anything to me. They wouldn't even know that I was new and I think at that point maybe that's not unhealthy, but maybe that just means I need to make some changes to make sure they know who's the guest and make them feel welcome, because that's kind of what made me decide to go to another church versus that one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say that's I'll put that more on the people coming in, or I mean the, not the people coming, the uh average attenders. I think we've kind of honestly, this goes for even churches our size. I won't again, we won't name our churches, won't name our sizes, but uh, even at churches our size, I think a big problem we have is we have kind of elevated to where all the work we expect all the work to be done by the pastoral and uh ministry staff and we're just attenders. We're just here to which, to be fair, y'all aren't because y'all work here.
Speaker 2:I did work here, rip n Nate. But I mean honestly though, even as a normal attender, it should be my burden to. If I see someone new in the aisle, I typically sit in. I should like reach out to them, even if my pastor doesn't specifically see them, or if the something like that, or even if it's a smaller church and the pastor doesn't notice the new person like me being in the aisle. I'm just as capable of talking to that new person as the pastor, or I should be just as capable of talking to them as the pastor is.
Speaker 1:I was just going to say that was going to be a point that I was going to make was. You know, it is up to the attenders sometimes, like you can't just be somebody that just is a body in a pew, like you're the body of Christ, yeah, like this is your family no-transcript, and I'm not saying I'm a pastor, but someone who is in a higher role in the church. There are times where there will be like old members who just haven't visited in a long time. And you know, I see so many faces throughout the week. Sometimes, when I go to church, like, unless we've specifically had a conversation, you're going to look like a new face to me and I might. And I mean that's why I treat everybody it's like it's their first time, because I mean you might be disingenuous but it keeps me from like you know, just being like oh, you know, it's better to be treated like that than just not say anything at all.
Speaker 2:I would much rather accidentally, say you know, hey, I haven't seen you before. Is this your first time? It'd be someone who's been here.
Speaker 3:30 years 30 years yeah.
Speaker 2:Than to just not say anything at all. And they never came, and then they never did it Exactly yeah, but, yeah.
Speaker 1:But that does follow like a lot of response, because I used to be that person. I was like, well, I can't you know, your pastor should know everybody. I'm like do you know how many people come through this building Like, and do you know how many people like just with our pastor alone the trail? So back to the question of when does the church get too big?
Speaker 2:And I again, going to agree with Spencer. I think there's certain things that whenever it's not a specific number, but it's more of, you start seeing signs or red flags, as the kids like to say, yeah, certain red flags, as we're going to get into this Nate's probably going to bring up that. When you see these, you know it's starting to get out of hand. Either a they aren't doing it right administratively or, b it's just getting too big to where it can't be done administratively. One of the two.
Speaker 5:Either way, it needs something, needs to change, yeah, so it's also hard to put a number on it, because if you do put a number on it, then what happens when you get past that number? Like, where are you looking at? Like do you just say, okay, well, we've gotten past 500 people, so let's send these 30 people that are coming over to this church over here.
Speaker 4:The healthy thing to do, spencer, is to stand up on stage and say guys, those of you who are newcomers, get out of this building. We hate you.
Speaker 2:Or we do Hunger Games style and we nominate certain ones from each generation and we have a Hunger Games brawl I'm in, I'm in.
Speaker 1:Oh dude, we lose half our church.
Speaker 4:But, yes, as soon as you make it about a number, what happens when you reach that number? That is a legitimate concern, and so I like what zeke was saying of just red flags when you start to see cracks in the foundation, when certain vital things such as greeting newcomers, saying hi to visitors, when that starts being neglected, uh yes, those are red flags.
Speaker 1:I think another red flag and maybe this can bounce us into the next topic of it is when signs that maybe your church is just a little too big is when there's one guy in control of several campuses Like that to me is like a big red flag. If you've got one pastor over multiple churches or they just come for this one guy, that's a huge red flag in my opinion. Question Answer.
Speaker 4:In the Bible playing Jesus. Next question, Devil's advocate, Would Paul, Timothy and Titus as early church leaders? Would they not be, as they're going around choosing elders and and setting up leaders in the local churches? Were they not traveling pastors or leaders, or apostles if you will, going to different local churches and speaking and preaching?
Speaker 1:Yeah, they were, but there's a difference between, because what they would do is like what you just talked about is they would set other people up to be over that. It wasn't like it was the Church of Paul. They would raise up a leader and then, as they were traveling back around, they would come and they would guest speak. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I'm talking about these campuses that are like satelliting there, just satelliting a sermon in.
Speaker 4:So let's talk about that. One model of megachurch is you have a central location. Very gifted, charismatic preacher is preaching at this location. Then you have different satellite campuses and surrounding areas and he is being beamed into these local campuses and the sermon comes from the central location. But at each of these satellite campuses there is a local pastor that's situated there. That pastor doesn't do the preaching, but is there for cares and concerns that arise locally in that area. What are our thoughts there?
Speaker 2:Why is that local pastor not being trained up to be a preaching pastor? And if that's not his skill or his calling, why are they not finding someone else to do both of those things?
Speaker 1:Exactly At that point. He's just a glorified babysitter.
Speaker 2:And then, second point being that, okay, if he's preaching a sermon, if the one way out there in some other location is preaching a sermon and someone has a question about that sermon, and they go up to this guy and like this guy may know the answer, but I mean, at the same time, he's not the one who prepared this whole sermon and preached it. Like he may not know the answer. Yeah, true.
Speaker 1:Literally he took the words right out of my mouth and stole it with a kiss.
Speaker 5:Well, a big issue too, and stole it with a kiss.
Speaker 2:Well, a big issue too, that that line.
Speaker 5:I had to process that one. All right, Judas. The big issue in society right now is pastors that are celebrity pastors, I think.
Speaker 4:Because Was Paul and Apollos and Peter not?
Speaker 5:popular, did we not? Did the church not need that at the time? I mean, what if they need?
Speaker 4:it today Popular preachers.
Speaker 5:I don't think we need it now.
Speaker 4:Spurgeon preached to many thousands every Sunday.
Speaker 1:So did Billy Graham.
Speaker 5:Millions and they may be great people, but the church doesn't need that in this time because we have so many churches split off. Look at our area. There's so many churches I think it's the most per square mile in the entire United States. It is.
Speaker 3:When it comes to all these celebrity preachers.
Speaker 5:It takes away from what the church is supposed to be in community.
Speaker 1:To come to Spencer's defense on this, I think what he's saying is absolutely true. Like we can't help it that there are people like Charles Spurgeons, billy Grahams, people who are just when they speak, they just grab your attention, they're just amazing speakers and they create like a mass following. Amazing speakers and they create like a mass following. I don't think there's anything wrong with having people like having people like Spurgeons and, you know, like these people who do get famous celebrity pastors, if we'll call them that. But I think where we're missing it is we just put them on the pedestal and every throw everybody else by the wayside. Like, no, it's good to have celebrity pastors, but we need to have local pastors as well. You can listen to these people for like extra whatever, but you need to have other people as well.
Speaker 4:Going back to the model, I like what you're saying. What's the difference between having a popular pastor preach at a location and live stream his sermons across Facebook, youtube, the rest of it? Live stream his sermons across Facebook, youtube, the rest of it. And because technically that's beaming that pastor to just your home Right Versus saying, all right, instead of doing that, we're going to beam the pastor to these other satellite locations, because you don't have to say who your pastor is, but does your local church record your sermons?
Speaker 2:and put them out. The difference is the ones who stream to a campus. Is you're going to a church building on Sunday to watch someone on a screen in another location and you're calling that your pastor? The difference between that? There's not a difference. What you're comparing is that versus a person who just stays at home and watches someone online and says that's my pastor, but they never attend the church. Is that what you're saying? Yes, oh yeah, there's no difference to me, they're both just as bad. So you would say both are bad. But there's a third category that I would. I'm going to play.
Speaker 1:Nate's advocate.
Speaker 2:It's not devil's advocate. I'm advocating for the church God's advocate, god's advocate. God's advocate. God's advocate. On this one Can you advocate for God?
Speaker 1:He advocates for me, so I don't know.
Speaker 4:We are ambassadors for Jesus. Okay, but he's our advocate.
Speaker 2:I'm advocating for the advocate.
Speaker 1:Okay, we're going with that. Yes, Advocate advocate.
Speaker 2:So advocating for live streams. There are those who are homebound we all have them at our churches who physically can't get out of their house or nursing home, whatever it is. It's a good benefit for them so they can still experience or listen to these sermons and the worship music and all the events and keep up with the announcements and stuff like that. It's good for that. But if we stop it there, it's not good because at the end of the day they're getting the same thing they could get at any other church anywhere else and they're not getting the fellowship. So that's why I assume y'all—I know y'all have the same thing, because I know you've done some of it—is we need to have people in the church who are going out and still visiting with those who are homebound or in nursing homes, even if it's not a specific role of just like a group, like there's different groups in the church, whether it's food ministry or whatever. We need to have some kind of ministry where people are getting visited and not just doing it on their own through TV, absolutely.
Speaker 4:Now one final thing, and then I'll move to a different model of megachurch. What if the argument is this the one person from the central location is just very talented, he's very charismatic, very gifted, and he will preach better than someone else, just from a skill standpoint. Because think about it, how many of us will go to a church because of the skill of the preacher? And so the logic is okay. If he's going to preach the best version of a sermon, the best version of a passage, well then don't we want to spread that to other areas because he's going to do it better than other people.
Speaker 3:Well, I think there's a lot more to being a preacher than just preaching a message. Obviously, where we go, our preacher is very talented in his preaching and his messages. But there's a lot more to him than just that. Like I see him going out and serving people, I see him caring for the congregation and actually following through and serving and just like I mean I feel like a big role is just caring for the congregation. You're not just preaching a message, being like all right, peace, leaving, see you all next Sunday. Like he stays behind after every service and he will stay as long as he needs to to talk to whoever wants to come, ask him a question about his sermon, give him a prayer request, a praise update, whatever it is.
Speaker 1:And I think that's a big difference, because if you're beaming a pastor and you don't really get that connection, yeah Right, because if you're beaming a pastor and you don't really get that connection, yeah Right. And the whole thing about what? If they're just like wildly talented? I'm actually going to like point to some like biblical evidence of like why this is a disaster. When we're going through Mark right now, jesus literally it's like you know you get to the calling through 12, like we read about in Mark, where Jesus calls the 12 and then he sends them out and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:There have been plenty of times in the book of Mark where when it's just Jesus now he does have his 12 disciples with him, but when it's just Jesus, these large crowds gather around Jesus and it's overwhelming and Jesus actually has to leave quietly a lot of the time because the crowds are so overwhelming. That's why you see time and time again throughout Mark, jesus saying don't tell people who I am, don't tell people who I am. But right before the feeding, the 5,000 passage, you get this passage of Jesus sending out the disciples and it's the first time we see the disciples called apostles. And you notice that this is the time in Mark that when Jesus encounters a very large group, so after he sends the 12 out, he's built them up and he sends them out to go minister to people and does this kind of crowd control thing. This is the first time that we really see like Jesus really have control of this 20, like 20,000 plus people when he feeds the 5,000.
Speaker 1:And so what I'm saying is you can have this great popular guy, I get it, he's wonderful, right, but the crowd control, the lack of being able to care, the lack of shepherding that comes with that because it's all falling on him, it's overwhelming and we even see Jesus say that. We see him just going to solitary places. He has to get away from that, because that's how big a crowd can get. It's unmanageable. But when you raise up multiple people granted, these disciples were not Jesus Jesus is like the main character of this whole thing, right, but he still raises them up and that's what we should do. Yeah, our job is not to be the most popular, the best witty, whatever. Our job is to tell the truth and to tell the gospel.
Speaker 5:I think also with talent comes also this human fallibility, where we just become so airheaded, we become engrossed in ourselves and if everyone around you is like, oh man, you're so, so great, you are so talented, you give so much energy to the service, it can turn into this thing where you don't have the training that you need to be the pastor. When we see it all the time, we see these people fall that just aren't ready for what comes and they are blasted out to millions of people. And so what happens is it makes the church look bad, it makes them look bad and it also makes that church look like they don't know what they're doing. And so it turns into this big deal to where these men fall they cheat on their wife, they kill themselves, whatever happens, and it makes it look like there's this huge implosion, this huge figure just blew up in front of them, and they were not really ready for what happened.
Speaker 4:Yes, we have to be careful that talent does not outweigh character.
Speaker 2:I think, something that we haven't really highlighted yet is. So, to the person who would say okay to your question of well, what? Why don't we give the more talented people these roles, so like, why don't we give it to them? Let them do it, since they obviously have the talent for it?
Speaker 2:I mean, that's in that kind of like forgetting where the talent comes from yeah so like if it's kind of if that that's our mentality, I'm not saying it's yours you ask, you always ask questions that you don't agree with, so it doesn't really matter. But if we acknowledge that all talents, all gifts, all giftings meaning like the things that we're capable of doing, the different ministries that we're good at at different points in our life they all come from the Holy Spirit, it seems like it's a lack of belief that the Holy Spirit can't work in someone else's life. It's like it's almost as if we think the pastor is only talented because of himself or because he's got some special quality and it's not the Holy Spirit working through him.
Speaker 2:So it's yes and amen. I'm glad that the Holy Spirit is working through these men. But how much more can the Holy Spirit work if we would use other men to raise them up, like use this pastor and his abilities and his talents that the Holy Spirit has given to that man, whether scandal, spencer points out or whatever, when he's gone, the local church will die.
Speaker 4:Whereas if we're doing the right thing, we're mentoring, discipling what Zeke has been talking about. We're choosing elders and deacons and we're in the word and we are empowering others to grow in their gifts and talents. We're leaving it up to God to be like all right. Lord, guide us in a sustainable, healthy, biblical way so that, when one generation eventually passes on, they fought the good fight. They've run the race. They pass on. The next generation is ready.
Speaker 2:I got a question for y'all With churches, big or small do you think there should be one lead pastor and just elders, or do you think there should be multiple pastors and one main pastor? Or what was the format that you see today, that you think would be best for a church.
Speaker 1:I like the format of our local church, the one that me and Nate attend, where we do have a main guy, we do have a lead pastor, but then we have what we call like a council and it's just like a checks and balance kind of thing. What? I just thought of what you call it the council.
Speaker 2:The council of Council of justice, oh, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1:Council of justice is completely different from the Council. The Council of Justice is when.
Speaker 2:So what's the Council?
Speaker 4:So the Council is like our church, would you say they're just like we have, like a treasurer, a president, and the way it works for us a little bit odd, but we have our council, which would function basically as our deacons and they help to run and oversee the day-to-day workings of the local church. And they help to run and oversee the day-to-day workings of the local church and then our elders would be the pastoral staff.
Speaker 4:And so we have yes, a senior pastor, who I guess would be a leading teaching elder, but then you have others on the pastoral staff who assist with that work, and so I think the most biblical version is not to have a pastor who's necessarily distinct from the other elders, but you may have a lead teaching elder that will preach most of the sermons, but he would not be above the other elders necessarily above the other elders, necessarily.
Speaker 2:That's kind of what I was thinking of and we've got we kind of. I think we have a similar model when it comes to pastor, like we have a, we have a crap, can't say names. We have our lead pastor same thing as y'all have where he's going to be preaching the majority of the time and then we have a associate pastor who handles other stuff but then whenever?
Speaker 2:it's his time occasionally, he'll do it every so often or when needed. And then we have a youth pastor, which same thing feels, same role of when we need a pastor or if he needs he. I think he preaches X amount of times per year probably, if I guess him as y'all, and then we have other, we'll have guest speakers, but I like that thing of like having multiple guys so that, like you said, if one falls or something happens, you multiple guys, so that, like you said, if one falls or something, happens.
Speaker 1:you're not just left in the dust, it's not all one person. The church still functions.
Speaker 2:You can have people who pick it up and they're ready to, because they've been trained to do it over years.
Speaker 5:It's not just out of the blue. I also think it's a great system, but it can also be a system where especially, you see, with the younger people, the youth they can divert from the rest of the church, which brings it back to the church has to be on the same page.
Speaker 5:The pastors the committees have to be on the same page because there are times and you see it all the time where the youth ministry for the most part gets off on their own thing. They think they're their own entity within the church and that they can start leading people to where they never leave youth group. They just they don't leave it and, uh, it's they. They just, for whatever reason, they don't grow up and it just turns into this whole big thing where the church is divided in in itself. So there has to be some sort of checks and balances and you have to see it before it starts yeah, westminster said get rid of youth group burn it to communicate no more as someone who is a is a technically a youth pastor.
Speaker 4:Burn it to the ground so, with those thoughts, let's move to another model.
Speaker 4:I like it Moving on when okay, still, megachurches are involved, with different branches and different campuses and all that, but what they'll do instead is every location will have its own preacher or its own pastor. Yeah, but earlier in the week they'll meet up to go over the same passage, over the same passage. So, yes, the central location will have its own lead pastor, but they'll meet up and they'll each preach on the same passage, but do it their own way. And so the different locations are all linked up, but the sermon is preached locally by its own person.
Speaker 2:So the only difference between that and another church is that these two churches are just agreeing to go through the same thing at the same time.
Speaker 1:Yes, I don't see anything wrong with that.
Speaker 4:In principle, I don't have a problem with that I don't have a problem with that at all.
Speaker 5:So let's just be Mormons.
Speaker 4:Spencer wants us to be Mormons.
Speaker 5:That's what they do. They all preach the same thing.
Speaker 2:That's Jehovah's Witnesses, yeah it's Jehovah's Witnesses, I know the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Speaker 1:They all follow these same exact, but theirs is like yeah, but theirs is televised.
Speaker 2:I don't even think, well, I don't even think they do it like that. They do it to where, like you, read the exact same thing from the pamphlet that you're given or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they read from the. So I don't have a problem with that model, I have a problem with Jehovah's.
Speaker 4:Witnesses clarify. Let me clarify. You're good with mormonism. I hate mormons well, mormonism, mormonism.
Speaker 1:I hate the book of mormon. That's what I was really thinking of was the book of mormon and the people and the people, and the people who follow yeah, you know what? Keep it in. I hate the people. I'll stop. I'll die on the sword all right, anything.
Speaker 4:Any other versions of the model of megachurch y'all want to go over any?
Speaker 1:any different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, zeke, what do you think about? Well, we haven't got your answer or anything. What do you think about megachurches Nate? Oh man, I almost got that. Do you have a number? What's your method? What is it?
Speaker 4:I'm thinking similar to what y'all are thinking, and the analogy I use we've talked about this before just more in private is whether you're a farmer or a shepherd. When it gets to the point where the leadership team, the elders of a church and or the deacons of the church, cannot meet the needs of the sheep, cannot tend the farm whatever analogy you want to use there then it's too large Because, yes, the word needs to be preached, communion and baptism needs to be practiced, but then there are also just pastoral cares and concerns that you need to be able to be present, be physically present, if able to be on the spot, to visit hospitals and nursing homes and home visitations, certain responsibilities that fall into pastoral care. If it's one guy with thousands of people, he can't do that. But even you might have a few elders eventually get to the point where they can't do that either. And then Spencer brought up a good point with guests.
Speaker 4:Are you able to connect with newcomers, zeke great follow-up of also. Hey, that's not all on the pastor, church members need to do it as well. So good clarification there. But yeah, can you meet newcomers and visitors and guests and answer questions and try to get them connected and plugged in. Just good points there. So for me you're right. There's not a number, there's not a magic number. That is too much. But instead, if you start to see those red flags and those cracks in the foundation, you need to think, okay, do we need a church plant, Do we need to get into church revitalization, which is what I really think we need to do here in Coleman.
Speaker 2:What do?
Speaker 4:you mean, as y'all alluded to, coleman does not need more church plants. I think we might be getting one I'm not sure from another one of the major networks, but anyways, I'm not sure about that CNN.
Speaker 1:But yeah, cnn or Fox, just kidding. Is it a charismatic?
Speaker 4:We can talk about it later.
Speaker 4:Anyways so we might be getting another one, but we don't need more church plants. However, there are a lot of churches out there, particularly if you go out more rural areas, country church types, where you might have a good church that just might be getting a little older, might be struggling a little bit, and so church revitalization projects come in and you take different members and you try to revitalize a dying church. It can get messy, a lot of issues related, they can pop up with it, but I think that's more where we need to focus on when it comes to churches in the area of Coleman.
Speaker 4:But, anyways, zeke you had.
Speaker 2:I changed my mind.
Speaker 4:Changed your mind. Okay, spencer.
Speaker 5:So you're saying we should go to all the liberal churches around us and reinvigorate?
Speaker 1:No, those would just probably fall away.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, I guess—.
Speaker 4:The Reconquista. Yeah, let's get the mainline church back.
Speaker 2:My question was going to be so when does a church need to just die, as you've said in the past?
Speaker 4:And that's where each individual church it's a discernment process. There is no one size fits all rule for that, because some churches if you think about all the letters that were written in the New Testament, the churches that were mentioned in Revelation they're all gone for various reasons. A single local church doesn't have to survive just to survive. There are natural rhythms of life and death. However, some churches can be revitalized. It just depends on the situation.
Speaker 2:So when you said discernment and I think that's just a cop-out answer, for I don't feel like giving the whole answer- it's called following the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, sure, whatever you want to say Next question?
Speaker 2:My question is we talked about okay, there are red flags for megachurches. When they become too big, because they can't handle everything, what would you say, are some, a couple and y'all can answer this too what are a couple red flags that you say, okay, this church may not be?
Speaker 4:I don't want to use the word worth, but it may be better off not trying to rebuild this church and let it die. I've known churches that will. This is an ungodly, unbiblical mindset. They're small and they're led kind of mafia style by one or two or three families and they will literally tell people we don't want newcomers, we have our church. It's become a social club. We have our church, we have our regulars. I don't want anyone new. It's our church, it's us. And so those types of churches that aren't willing to change, aren't willing to reflect and repent, it's become a social club. It it's dead. Those I would say they can go.
Speaker 1:Blake, I guess that's kind of what I was going to say, but I wasn't going to go with like a mafia style thing, I think. Like I agree with that. Don't get me wrong. I've seen churches where it's like, because they're so small and they're dying, they get the mindset that they're the true Christians and nobody else wants to come.
Speaker 4:They're doing it the right way. Other people don't want to do it the right way, which is why we're so small.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and then they get stuck in that mindset. It's like persecution is the proof that they're doing the right thing. But then you go to their church and you see they don't offer outreach programs, they don't offer serve projects, there's no youth ministry or anything like that. So they just come listen to the preacher, go home.
Speaker 2:Are they really that much different from a mega church who just cares about the celebrity pastor and then they go home for the week?
Speaker 4:That's a great point. Zeke brought up something that's good. The size of a church has nothing to do with whether it's healthy or not. You have healthy large churches and unhealthy large churches. You have healthy small churches and unhealthy large churches. You have healthy small churches and unhealthy small churches. It's all dependent on whether the word is being faithfully preached, communion and baptism is being practiced. Is there fellowship, growing closer to the Lord together in the community, and then is there outreach into the larger community on the outside. So that was a good point.
Speaker 1:I would really love to see, like speaking of that Zeke, like I just don't know if that's even possible, that if a mega church being that big wouldn't, it would just be a church where you literally just come in and then you leave. What do you mean when you're just that big and you have that many members? I just think it's just. It would blow my mind. I just have never met a church that wouldn't youth?
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, sorry, let me clarify. I wasn't saying they don't have the extra stuff, you're just saying what it is. But it gets to the point, to where the majority of people are just coming to hear the sermon and then go home.
Speaker 1:I thought my bad, I was tracking with.
Speaker 2:I mean, if there's a church like that.
Speaker 1:That would be wild. Imagine having that many people in the church. Well, um, Joel.
Speaker 2:Osteen, Sorry I wonder what their extra.
Speaker 1:I've never looked into it because they're heretical but I'm curious as to what do all their other ministries look like? They'll be like you're a youth pastor.
Speaker 2:What that means is they watch Joel Osteen's kids whenever he's like Can I come on Tuesday and get healing at Benny Hinn's stuff, or is it only on Sunday?
Speaker 4:It's only when they have carefully planted people ready to go?
Speaker 2:How do I get carefully planted though?
Speaker 4:So here's how Well, if you have an actual problem.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, no, no, here's how it works. Here's how it works okay. Okay, if you let's say you had cancer, had cancer right, yeah, right it's already been healed.
Speaker 2:It's already been healed, right, yeah, but what you do is you go up to the guy. Oh, so they heal you. Guys, we'll make a strike on the channel.
Speaker 5:We're talking about Benny Hinn too much he's going to try and sue us.
Speaker 1:Sorry, sorry, he will try to sue us. You're going to have to bleep out Benny, hinn, hinn, benny.
Speaker 4:Hinn Benny. Another series off of that tangent Mike Winger is going to come out soon. Charismatic preachers.
Speaker 1:Can we talk about that on a podcast? Can we please talk about charismatic movement?
Speaker 4:Because there's an uproar or uprising in it and I think it's just we can talk about it. But yeah, he's gone after some popular YouTube type. We'll talk about it later.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Spencer, you had some comments.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I was just talking about red flags in a church. There was a large church a number of years ago where there was a breakdown in communication between the elders and the pastor and it turned into someone who was being abused being called out in front of the church as if they were a sinner. So I think when stuff like that happens. There's definitely, definitely something wrong with the size and with where the focus is within the church, and that's.
Speaker 1:At that point would it be safe to say if that kind of abuse is going on in a church, would it be good with church revitalization, or would that be good for just to like kind of shut the doors on that?
Speaker 4:Again, there's not going to be a hard and fast rule. I know that frustrates Zeke. A hard and fast one one size fits all solution. But for churches like that, doctrine's off, application of doctrine is off. I think there needs to be some soul searching and some gutting of leadership. But that doesn't mean that head out to somewhere else. So what?
Speaker 2:do you do as the? Let's say we find out. Let's say we're trying to do what you're saying and trying to restore these churches. What would you say is a again, you don't have to get into every detail, but what's a general protocol of what are you doing? Are you going in? You're like, hey, you're looking for a pastor. I'm the pastor, like, what do you do? What would the process look like of I'm going to try and restore this church? And then you get to a certain point You're like, okay, well, how do you help the people who are willing to be changed and willing to be malleable, but they're stuck with all these other people who run the church?
Speaker 4:In this situation. The person has been a regular member Is that what you're saying.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I'm saying either way.
Speaker 4:If you are a regular member of an unhealthy church and you know it's unhealthy and you want to change it, you have to bring your concerns before leadership. Okay, you would talk with the pastors, the elders, the deacons with the pastors, the elders, the deacons You'd bring your concerns and scriptural support, maybe some support from the laity, the church members. Hey, we're seeing ABC. This violates all these biblical principles. We need to see some change. Then what's going to happen is typically there's going to be some human resistance. We're not doing anything wrong or you're out of line, You're trying to cause division and then from there you keep working and fighting. But ultimately, if church leadership doesn't change, if there's no meaningful change of direction happening, you can honestly say I did what I was supposed to do and I'm out. But it starts with leadership.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, so for anyone listening, if you're in that position, like you're saying, like you do what you can. If you're already there, you get other people together who see what you're seeing and you go to church leaders and if they are just unwilling to move, you've done the best you can. But if they are, then that's where you start.
Speaker 4:Yes, and lots. That's where you start. Yes, um and lots of different things can happen once you bring up those concerns, but it doesn't all end terribly sometimes. Churches have actually changed and that's refreshing to see. It doesn't always happen, but it does at times I feel like one of the.
Speaker 2:We've talked about a lot about red flags. I feel like one of the biggest green flags for me when I think of a good leader would be humility, and I think it can be easily be translated. Some people would say, oh well, you mean a pushover? I'm like. Well, no, I don't want them to be pushover to where they just change anytime someone gives them criticism, but I also don't want them to be so stuck up and stubborn that they never accept change.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Someone who's willing to, you know, accept criticism and actually think about it, not just brush it off.
Speaker 4:I'm the most humble man.
Speaker 2:I've ever met Zeke. Yeah, tell me about it.
Speaker 4:So let's see where do we want to go from here, Covering megachurches, issues that might come from size, but then we also mentioned just because you're small doesn't mean anything by itself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can suck too.
Speaker 4:You can be bad too, or you can be great. Anyways, I think the Bible does not outline the maximum or minimum size of a church. I did a seminary assignment one time where they said how small can a church be? And we looked at the requirements and ultimately it got down to two people. You can have a church with two people.
Speaker 2:So on a deserted island, you're by yourself. You can't have a church.
Speaker 4:Not a local church? No, you can be part of the church universal. No, you cannot be a local church unless you want to get some horses and some dogs and see All right, y'all, let's all get together and try to do something.
Speaker 2:Get a volleyball.
Speaker 1:I was going to say we're on a deserted island. Where are you getting these horses and dogs from?
Speaker 4:Horses are on islands. What I like.
Speaker 1:Horses are on island horse island, I didn't say horse island I said horses are on island, name it okay if you're just making a broad general statement that they're on an island, like yes, we're on an island right now my gosh, we're on a yellow submarine all right.
Speaker 4:You know, australia has horses right that's a big island.
Speaker 5:What do you mean? What are you saying?
Speaker 4:you're just saying two true statements north america and south america combined anyways, uh, all right, any other final thoughts on mega churches, things to look for, observations and all the rest of it I guess if you see joel staying in the the front run, run away, run, far away Run away.
Speaker 5:Just because it's big and popping doesn't mean it's.
Speaker 1:Rocking, popping and big Popping and big.
Speaker 5:Hold on.
Speaker 4:Just because it's big and popping doesn't mean it's Popping and big. No.
Speaker 5:I was going to say that's what he said.
Speaker 4:That was clever, biblically shocking, biblically rocking. This has gone off the rails. We are signing off. Spencer, you have rejoined us, and so we will ask you to give us our parting words.
Speaker 5:I don't even know, man, amen.
Speaker 4:Todd White, we don't know, but God does Peace out. White we don't know, but God does Alright peace out.
Speaker 1:We don't know, but God does. Popping and locking.
Speaker 2:Stopping and dropping. Thank you.