The Dangerous Life Team tackles two questions:
– Is Christmas a pagan holiday?
– Should parents let their kids believe in Santa?
Website: www.dangerousfaith.net
YouTube: Dangerous Faith
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The Dangerous Life Team tackles two questions:
– Is Christmas a pagan holiday?
– Should parents let their kids believe in Santa?
Website: www.dangerousfaith.net
YouTube: Dangerous Faith
Rumble: Dangerous Faith
Instagram: nwdangerousfaith
Twitter: @FaithDangerous
Facebook: @NWDangerousFaith
Hello everybody. Today we're going to be talking about something huge, absolutely huge. We're going to be talking about if Christmas is a pagan holiday, is it fake news? Who knows? We're going to talk about it. Praise the Lord.
Speaker 2:That, ladies and gentlemen, is Justin, with an incredible Donald Trump impersonation.
Speaker 3:I'm pretty sure it's just Donald Trump.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he came in to the studio to record the question is Christmas a pagan holiday? And then with that, once we cover that and we solve all the issues ever addressed there, we'll then get into the topic of should you allow your kids to believe in Santa and, if so, how long? People have different thoughts on that. Christians have a lot of different thoughts, if you could imagine so we're going to dive right in. Some Christians don't celebrate Christmas because they hold it to be a pagan holiday. Any thoughts about that? Anyone want to jump in? They're wrong. Zeke says they're wrong and very in depth answer.
Speaker 4:That's saying on the show.
Speaker 1:To be fair with what they're saying. It does come from the original roots of a pagan holiday that Catholics adapted to be a Christian focused holiday, and I think most people know that Jesus probably was not really born in December. I believe. They think it was more springtime was what people say.
Speaker 2:You got me.
Speaker 4:I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2:You cannot find the manger.
Speaker 1:Jesus was born in Checkmate. Atheists, oh man, all right.
Speaker 2:Any other thoughts there?
Speaker 3:Is that true, though I don't know that we even adopted another holiday. Which holiday are you talking about?
Speaker 1:What is the name of it?
Speaker 3:Talk about Sola and Victus.
Speaker 1:I can't remember. I think it's mid-summer or something like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's the same one.
Speaker 1:I can't recall, but either way it was basically a they did really bad stuff and Catholics wanted to make it a more wholesome Christian holiday to keep them from doing this. So they changed it from being about all this bad stuff to more focused on. Let's celebrate the birth of Christ, Even though he may not necessarily been born in Christmas. Let's make it a more Christian focused holiday.
Speaker 2:Okay, any other thoughts on that?
Speaker 3:I don't know enough to say it's true or false, but let's just go with what Justin's saying. Well, I don't know. So if that's the case, do y'all have a problem with us taking a pagan holiday and making it Christian? Is there anything wrong with that?
Speaker 1:No, I think, as long as it's like, very obviously, if you say let's make this Christian, but still keep, let's worship the devil and sacrifice a goat before the blood altar.
Speaker 3:Let's escalate it really quickly, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But I mean, obviously that's not. I don't think that's really what they did, but I mean, if you're doing things along those lines, that's very obviously not what you should do as a Christian and claiming it's a Christian holiday, You're wrong. You're in the wrong there.
Speaker 2:Isaac, I think you wanted to jump into the conversation. What would you have?
Speaker 4:to say I'll come back to me.
Speaker 2:Come back to me, so I'm going to play a little bit of a devil's advocate. Y'all just make fun of me for using that term, isaac.
Speaker 4:Why did the?
Speaker 3:devil need an advocate, and why are you so eager to be it?
Speaker 2:I know I just it's the lawyer in me, but Are you saying lawyers are of the devil?
Speaker 3:Basically, he's not answering.
Speaker 2:Yes, I am no just kidding Lawyer friends out there, I love you, don't get mad at me. So I think that is a little bit of a pushback. If we can take stuff that's openly pagan and we can Christianize it like, oh, put in a little Christian, twist a little theology here, bible there, and make it Christian, is there a limit to us doing that in culture in general?
Speaker 2:So for example, this could take us way off topic, so I might have to reign us in, depending on where this goes. Some people, like on a Sunday morning, will sing an openly anti-Christian song I can think of. One Highway to Hell was one time sang in a church because the thinking was. The thinking was what's that, justin, your?
Speaker 1:facial expression. I'm just saying I have begged our music master to let us do that for years.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying and the thinking you gotta know where you're going. The thinking was that Christ redeems. You can take stuff that's in the world, but maybe, if it's a sermon on hell or a sermon on heaven, god can redeem it and use it for good. And it was used in a church service. It was some mega church somewhere, anyway. So, isaac, are you ready to what you got for us?
Speaker 4:Based on what you just said, I want to talk about that. It's different when you're talking about taking a day and then turning it for Christ, as in we don't celebrate the pagan rituals or anything. We don't sacrifice goats and worship Satan. Everything we do is for Christ. We celebrate him, his birth and all that stuff, but with the song it's like you're literally singing a song. That means something. It means I'm on a highway to hell and you're trying to turn it To something it can't mean on that highway before Jesus, exactly Isaac but it says I'm on a.
Speaker 4:How it doesn't say I was on hey.
Speaker 2:How it says I'm on a highway to hell describes humanity apart from Christ, so would you say that if you were an atheist, we would not be on this highway.
Speaker 4:Our atheist, christians. Okay, exactly.
Speaker 3:Hey, gee ill buddy, there's two of those, but I'm I'm gonna take Isaac's side of. I think there's a difference between Taking a time of the year where pagans do certain thing and we do something completely different, and then there's a difference between that and taking a practice that a pagan would do and Inheriting that practice and then calling it Christian if we sacrifice, are doing like yeah. Whatever pagans do for that time of year Christmas time of year and we start doing that stuff, we would all probably agree that's not good.
Speaker 4:So in the Bible, the canaanite sacrifice babies to Moloch. If the Jews were like you know what? We're just gonna do this in honor of God and start sacrificing our babies to God. Is that okay or wrong?
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:What if they went from? I'm again. I don't believe these things. This is just for composing he's the antichrist. Yes, but we do practice. They did in those days, practice sacrifices. So, for example, the equivalent to the, the Christmas conversation, the birth of the son was maybe the pagan version, son being s you, and the solstice Versus the birth of the son. S-o-n being the birth of Christ. I Again, it just seems like you were just doing something pagan and just calling it Christian.
Speaker 4:Okay, so this is what you said. You said so they sacrificed animals, so that was kind of the same thing as us changing Christmas and it was okay in the Old testament back to more of the Christmas conversation.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So what I'm saying is you can't take something. If we were worshiping, doing the things that pagans did, to worship Jesus, I think that would be wrong, just as if you sacrifice babies to Yahweh. You know that would be wrong, but we're not Doing that. We're taking a day and changing it completely, centered around God and around Jesus's birth.
Speaker 5:Yeah, kind of add on to Isaac saying when we talk about worship, it just it matters what our worship is going towards. So like we might be doing the same things that pagans do, like we might be singing songs, but we're not singing songs to the pagan gods, we're singing songs to our God. So it's really the direction of our worship which is kind of a spoiler into the episode with grow, with Chloe next.
Speaker 4:But yeah, and a little plug, yeah, and add on Chloe direction and the way we worship to, kind of because we're like we said, we're not gonna sacrifice babies to God.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, in case any of our listeners Were worried about that, excuse clarification.
Speaker 4:People do that nowadays.
Speaker 1:Yes, I would like the Everybody watching this podcast to know that when I plugged my church's Trunk retreat, may beat me with a stick.
Speaker 5:But my thing has to do with this podcast. It's not about.
Speaker 2:Jesus.
Speaker 4:We have some tension in there.
Speaker 3:Good thing, your own opposite sides of the table, okay. So Sadly, this probably won't be the best resource for someone being convinced that it's not Wikipedia. No, even worse, because now they're starting to charge. So inspiring philosophy the things names Mike or Matt. These Matt, no, matt, mike Jones, you know inspiring philosophy is this YouTube channel and he's did a several videos on this where he goes into depth of like all the different old-time pagan stuff and like what was true, what isn't.
Speaker 3:What I was thinking about earlier when Justin's bring that up, I was like I'm not sure if that's true. What I was thinking of is sometimes they'll take Jesus and say Jesus wasn't real, he just came from all these other rituals or pagan stuff and he they just kind of sprinkled in a little bit here, a little bit there, like they'll take a Some pagan that was supposedly born of a virgin and had 12 disciples and yada, yada, yada. But if you actually look into evidence, literally known that true, like the born of the virgin, that story goes for, that one is they were born of like a rock, that that's not a virgin stuff like that. So like my point to say is that, at the end of the day, if you really something that really worries you, or like your practice, like you don't practice Christmas because you think it's pagan. I don't think we're gonna be very convincing from what we've said, but go look at these videos. Mike winger also does a really good one and Inspiring philosophy. They have great videos on them.
Speaker 1:Also where I will say I got my source for that as well. There's a show called Adam ruins everything, where he goes into detail about several different things. That's kind of where I got my information as well.
Speaker 3:Oh, that sounds terrible.
Speaker 2:Isaac Do you have any thoughts on on that.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 2:Anything else on the topic of is Christmas a pagan holiday? Should Christians practice it? Chloe?
Speaker 5:I think another point of the conversation is people will bring up Well, what about Christmas trees? Like Christmas trees are a common thing and like they look like the ash or a poles or whatever they're called. But how is cutting down a tree and Like putting in your house and decorating it? There is literally nothing inherently evil.
Speaker 3:Chloe and Jeremiah says we can't do that.
Speaker 1:Also, except for the fact that you're murdering something on the earth, chloe, cutting it down.
Speaker 5:No, it's taking some of God's creation and putting it in your home. And it's a fun thing to do with your family, like it's good family time. You make memories, like it doesn't look anything like a pole, so I don't really get that connection.
Speaker 2:I've heard that too, chloe, and yeah, I would like you. I don't think it holds a lot of water. I do think that it goes back to the Christmas tree, or at least the wreath or something along those lines, goes back to Martin Luther himself and some of the practices he did Not Martin Luther King junior, you know, but anyways are we have.
Speaker 3:We said so one last thing, something I do feel confident as far as talking about this is some people will say that the Christmas tree I did is pagan and that it's the Bible says we can't do it because Jeremiah 10 I looked it up, jeremiah 10 where it talks about other nations going and cutting down trees and putting silver and gold on them and decorating. It's like see, we can't do that, that's what we do today. That's, and God says not to. Right there One Michael English talks about that, so again, he'll look him up to Actually read that verse and it's actually pretty clear what it's talking about.
Speaker 3:It's talking about it says the trees don't speak cause God's making a point like these things that you're cutting down, they don't speak. What are things that they cut down and made that they thought were quote-unquote gods? It would be like idols. So these are idols that we're talking about in Jeremiah 10, not just Someone randomly cut down a tree, like they're carving up these trees. They're going. It's even says, I think, somewhere like they have to take them to craftsmen to get cut down and to get carved. So these aren't just simple Christmas trees like we would do today.
Speaker 5:They're completely different and nobody worships those trees.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no one worships Christmas tree. So if you do, then you have a problem.
Speaker 2:We might need to talk about that. Okay, so we are now going to talk about the most important thing Ever when it comes to your salvation.
Speaker 3:Jesus real.
Speaker 4:Christmas trees or fake Christmas trees fake it's and they're not, and they're not sticky.
Speaker 1:I'm split because fake.
Speaker 5:Fake is so much easier, but real is fun to do with like family.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so I can't have fun with a fake Christmas tree.
Speaker 5:Chloe, you can but you don't get to go to the park and, like you know, cut down a tree or the farm.
Speaker 4:He's being the devil's advocate.
Speaker 2:At least he's honest so we have everyone voting basically for faith. Chloe's on the fence. And I think I see it both ways as well, but anyways, regardless of that, moving on another Christmas conversation, we're going to have Pertains to the one and only Santa. Is it acceptable? Is it okay to let your kids believe in Santa and if so, how long should you let them do so? Anyone want to start us off? We're gonna get this barn burner going. I don't know. Y'all's at various positions on this, except for a couple, justin, I Can.
Speaker 1:I can definitely see why people may not want to and ultimately I don't really think either side is really Is really that big of a deal. It's just a preference of the parents, but my family's done it for years. It's just a fun thing to do with your kids. I don't see the problem with that.
Speaker 2:Okay. So Justin says fun thing to do with your kids.
Speaker 5:So, yeah, I'm kind of like I grew up doing the Santa thing with my family and it's something. This is a topic that I've been thinking through like for one day, whenever I do have kids like, what do I want to do with my family? But recently I saw this thing from a famous pastor, jonathan Bacluda JP. He posted on his Instagram so I had sent this question in did you allow your kids to believe in Santa when they were little? So I'm just gonna read his Response because I thought it was really good. He says absolutely, we fostered the idea and celebrated their imagination. We always said I just want you to know. There's a secret about Santa, there's something about him that I'm not telling you. One day they individually asked is it that he's not real? And I said absolutely, st Nicholas was a real person. But today we are left with a lot of make a fun, make belief ideas around him. Jesus is real and you'll never find out anything disappointing about him, only all wonder and facts.
Speaker 2:Okay, Any other thoughts on this topic? Anyone want to jump in?
Speaker 6:so I Think me and both Isaac both have the same viewpoint. Actually, I kind of know we have the same viewpoint because we're married and this is what we will decide to do for our children. But I grew up, you know, my parents Fostered it for a little bit, but I also had much older siblings and so they never really. They were always like he's not real, you know.
Speaker 6:So I didn't really believe in them for that long but I was like they did Santa to you. But I think I'm not. You know, I don't know judgment for anybody that does decide to let their child believe in Santa, but I just think it is a form of deception and I mean it's not really like the child is coming up with it in their own mind. You know, the parent actively has to tell them like oh, there's this man named Santa and he makes all the toys and in one night he comes, delivers them all and he eats cookies and all this stuff. Like the child isn't just like born knowing that, you know. And then at some point you do have to tell them obviously, like it's not real and I just think that it's something additional that maybe we don't need around Christmas because it's about Christ. So I think it kind of diverts from it a little bit. So I think for us in our home we will choose not to.
Speaker 4:I grew in McKinsey, I would. I guess I could put it more bluntly. I just think it's kind of lying to your kids, for I don't know, and we like we said we decided not to do it and it for everybody, it's their own, their own judgment, and that they want to do it or not. But growing up it was kind of we believed in it and it's not like it was thing that hurt me the most. But if I could go back and change it, I would.
Speaker 4:I would rather I love Santa, love my parents, like I'm not saying anything bad about him, nothing but like what I want to do with my kids and instead of focusing on Santa and singing all these Christmas songs about him and going shopping for gifts and all that stuff and like wearing oh, are you on the naughty list, are you on the nice list? Like kind of works based on and stuff like that I would rather like, because we just talk about the pagan holiday and everything, I would rather focus the season around Christ, because that's literally the ultimate reason for the season and I would rather have them know about him than Santa, who doesn't exist and one day they're gonna be like oh well, santa doesn't exist and my parents lied to me so I'm unfortunately I'm split down both sides and my answer this is not gonna be satisfying for anyone.
Speaker 3:Yeah, how much though I love Mr Real question. So on the one hand, I look at it from the side of, like my own personal experience of growing up for me it was, it was fun to, you know, celebrate Santa like I. But I am afraid of that going too far to where a kid doesn't realize the real meaning of Christmas and that's really sent around Jesus. So I think, as parents, regardless of what we decide, this is something that, like you said, you like I think it's a parents decision, but I'd say that it's important. Even if the parent decides to do Santa, it can't be the main focus. If that becomes the main focus, that I would preach against that. So I think we'd all be in agreement of that. But putting that aside for a second, let's say in my own personal experience of Santa, like it was fun for me because, like it, once I learned, I think I around like hey, I was like fourth grade, however old you are in, like fourth grade so but when I learned, then I've learned, cause I saw some packaging that my mom was doing for Christmas presents and it said from Santa, I was like, oh crap, he's not real and sorry kids spoiler. And then for me it was kind of fun, cause then I got to kind of play along in this little game with my parents for the younger ones and yeah, I, honestly I.
Speaker 3:That's the hardest part for me is what Isaac said of it is like deceptive and he isn't the focus on Christmas. So if I was convinced here's where I think a healthy Christian would be is if you are on the fence, I think the healthy response on the fence is you know what is this a big deal to where? If I was convinced that this isn't okay, I'm not, I'm okay with not doing it. Now, if you're at the point where you'd say, you know what, even if it's not healthy, I'm not, I'm still gonna do like that's not, it's not very wise. If, if you're, well, if you think it's actually unhealthy, then don't do it. That's where I'm at.
Speaker 4:I need to be convinced that it's unhealthy, yeah um, another thing I would say is I think it's really unwise to say, to trick your kids and to thinking like Santa's real and that's the only thing I was talking about, that's the only thing for the season. I don't think that's wise. But if you're are gonna tell your kids, like we want to tell our kids, that Santa is this guy, who's make believe based on this guy, and people like to sing these songs saying like, oh, he's gonna come down your chimney and give, if they know that it's not real, like they know that Santa Claus isn't a real person, that's okay with us, cuz we're not gonna tell her. We're not just gonna let our kids say like, oh, mommy, somebody or daddy, somebody came up to me and was telling me about Santa Claus. Like what is that?
Speaker 5:like I want my kids because people say, well, you don't want to shelter them and I don't want to shelter my kids, but I do want to raise them in the right way yeah, I'm gonna say this, cuz I know Zeke won't and he hasn't, but he told me when we were talking about this a couple weeks ago because we're both kind of split on it, like we don't really know exactly what we want to do yet, because hopefully that's further on down the road but something that he said was a good alternative a good alternative, yeah, if you're on the fence and you don't really know, but it kind of might be just to like leave it open for their own like interpretation and like be like, well, do the facts and evidence point to this, and then them just kind of reason through that in their own kid brain, I guess.
Speaker 6:I think too, it's good to look at Santa and what he really stands for also as a whole. Like you think about it, a lot of kids in there in their mind. You know they're more simple than us just believe. Like this man brings me presents, I write him a list, I get what I want, I play with it for a week and then if I'm good, if I'm good I get it if I'm bad, I'm not, when really I think it should be more of.
Speaker 6:I'm fine with my child knowing that his mom and dad worked hard to get him a couple presents this year that he can really cherish, that's great. But also knowing that we give gifts because Christ gave us the ultimate gift and we want to share that joy of sharing with the ones we love, instead of more of. Well, if I'm good, the big man in the red suit who's watching me all the time will put me on the nice list. And then also, I think it kind of gets into like the elves and I just think parents can kind of get carried away with it with the magic in quotation marks instead of more like a teaching moment for your child. You know it's cute for the elf to like be in the toilet playing or whatever, but it just it's another level of deception. I feel like it's Santa is a gateway for the elves, which is a gateway for you know, it's just like it's a drug.
Speaker 6:It's just I don't know. I just feel like it's not what we should do as Christians, and another thing is like this it, this sounds like.
Speaker 4:I don't want to go overboard with the analogy because people about oh well, that's completely different, but it's an analogy, there's a reason. So, like people say it's fun and you know your kids have fun doing it, all this stuff, what's the harm in it? Well, I believe it's its deception, which is evil. But you would what if you somebody said that to like a drug addict or someone who partied all the time? Well, you know what? I just have fun. You know I just go all these parties, get drunk, but eventually they could become an alcoholic. Eventually something could happen to where they become a drug addict. Like, just because sin is fun doesn't mean it's good, or just because something that's not wholesome or whatever it is fine doesn't mean you can do it.
Speaker 2:I see what you're saying did you go for it?
Speaker 2:I'm gonna push back just a little bit in this way, that will read lots of stories to our kids one day. And you have Narnia, lord of the Rings. We might have different thoughts on Harry Potter. Maybe you'll have fairy tales and you know what is it Grimm's fairy tales or whatever from, from Germany that a lot of stories have come from and some people who are pro letting your kids believe in Santa. They'll come at it this way that it's okay to foster imagination, story building, sense of wonder and all again. Maybe be careful where you go with magic and witchcraft and some of those things. Naturally, yes, but world building in the mind of a kid, it's not a bad thing and we should foster that and help that to grow. And even if kids think that Humpty Dumpty was a true story or Jack in the Beanstalk actually happened when they're young, that's okay when they're young because it helps to develop the imagination is there a difference between a kid believing something is true and someone deceiving to kid to believe it's true?
Speaker 4:would you say there's a difference there. So if I read my kid Robin Hood and they're like that's real, you know, robin Hood really exists on stuff I'd be like you know, I could just use to be like you know, let him figure out all this, almost stuff like that. But if I'm actively, you know, shooting arrows in the backyard and be like who did that? You know Robin, rob's Robin Hood, I feel like that's a little.
Speaker 2:That's a little different now, what about kids believing, for example, they're Batman, spider-man and they wear a costume? And to the little, kid genuinely believe it, like oh look, I'm Batman because I'm wearing the suit, whatever. What do you think about stuff like that? Is that harmless to you? Or do you say sorry, little whoever, bobby, billy Joe, not actually Batman, like?
Speaker 1:where is?
Speaker 2:there a line there?
Speaker 6:I think that's a great point. But sometimes we don't give kids enough credit. You know I'm a round a lot of like kindergartners, preschoolers, first grade, and they can easily understand the concept of real and fake. We talk about like fiction and nonfiction and they can obviously tell like if a turtle is talking in this story it's not real. You know, like they can see the real world and kind of separate that from pretend and I think it's it's sweet to let our children be creative, you know, draw pictures of you know a talking turtle or whatever. But I don't think it's okay.
Speaker 6:I think it when we go from that to saying you know Santa's real, coming from the parents mouth, it confuses them. They're like well, I know there's a difference between real and fake, pretend to not, but if my mom and dad is telling me Santa's real, then why would I doubt that? You know, like it kind they may think like it kind of sounds weird. Yeah, he has magic and Talking reindeer Rudolph and whatever that. My mom and dad said yes, so you know, I think it confuses them what do we do?
Speaker 3:okay, so this is a little bit of a tangent how do we as parents which none of us are right now, but um, how do we as parents, when we are, foster our kids imagination? Cause I think imagination is a good thing, cause there are gonna be some things In this world that we can't explain, that we're gonna have to trust god and without facts and logic. Take, for example, you know, if a kid grows up and says, okay, only the things that I see and I understand in my own world are the things that happen. For example, I will talk about burning bush, someone speaking out of it. That doesn't happen everyday life. So the kids will go, so that must be a fairy tale.
Speaker 3:Or what about the time where the donkey talks in the Bible? Or all these other weird things that are a whole sea parts? Those aren't things that we see in our everyday life. So how do we do a good job if we don't? I'm not saying christmas is the solution to all this, I'm saying but Everything else side our daily lives how do we as parents, our future parents, do a good job of fostering our imagination to where our kids aren't being? Sorry, I'm losing words.
Speaker 4:Go ahead, I'll say yeah, so I have a side, like I have a reverse question, but then I'll answer your question. If we tell our kids that certain things are real and then one day they find out, believe that's not, with that not hurt them more and trying to believe things that are relax, a party, some cuz I got, well, they told me this is real, but you know, one day I may figure out. It's not kind of thing. But then how do we foster? It's like we read stories. Like kids have imagination. You can play games with them. Like Kids like oh, let's go sell the seven seas on a couch. Like the kids know that's not real. And it's not like you're telling that's the sea, like that's the sea you know, like you're not putting water on it. Like that's the sea. The kids are saying like, oh, this is happening, this is happening. Like kids have imagination on their own. And if you just let them be kids and play, and play with their friends and be kids, I think that will foster think that's true for some kids.
Speaker 3:There's other kids, I think, that know aren't naturally gifted with wild imaginations. I just take, for example, like two kids I knew who were twins. One like Would just make up stuff all time. That obviously wasn't like her brother beating up a bear. And then the other ones like no, that never happened, like if anything for him was like complete logic and reason.
Speaker 4:But is that like?
Speaker 3:the age of five or six. Is that wrong? Like If I think it's a good thing, is how do you?
Speaker 4:know like what if that's just their character? Like I really don't believe in that stuff. I just kind of want to believe in the facts I think they're both important though. Why.
Speaker 3:Calls. I think that there's gonna be some things in this life that we can explain away with facts and logic, and it's healthy to have an open mindset that god can work in ways that we can explain.
Speaker 6:Yeah. I think the key to that, though, is that god can work in this way. I think searching for that creativity and that imagination in other things, like in other stories, like fairy tales, is just like Going down the wrong path, because the key is god has all power, all authority. He can do anything. It's not magic with god, it's him, and he has a character, and this is why he does things. He part of the red sea so that they could flee from pharaoh. He Made the bush burn so he could speak through it to moses. Like it's more of god's not just doing this for no reason and it's really cool, is no? God's using this Through his authority that nobody else has.
Speaker 6:You know, it's not really the imagination could be like fostered to the bible yeah, of course, and and instilling in your child that god can do anything is very healthy. But I think If you just go to the world for that creativity, then it kinda can get into your children learning to lie a little bit. You know, to some point, like where they say like I didn't do it, the easter bunny did it, or whatever you know. Yeah, like it's it's not bringing it back to god. I feel like the key is bringing it back to god.
Speaker 5:So I'd like to ask another question for y'all. I'm just some curious. I'm kinda going back to the deception thing and line cuz I understand that is, yeah, the magic stuff. That definitely seems like deception. But how do you justify that with like common lies? Parents tell their kids like if they have candy, and they give them a little bit, and then they're like sorry, I don't have anymore. They definitely do like how is that different?
Speaker 6:yes, so I think it's funny, cuz I don't think that's okay. Like I just think you know you can say to your kid hey, yeah, we're not through with the candy, like there's still some left, but if you eat more it's gonna hurt your stomach. Someone cut you off. Or instead of saying like I see what you're saying, a lot of parents will be like you eat one more piece, all your teeth are gonna fall out like no, don't tell your child that. Just say we've had enough, our bellies are full, we can come back to it later, you know yeah, if, like I think, kids, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong you know,
Speaker 4:but the way you raise a kid can kind of like foster how they are, how they are and how they respond to things and stuff. And so If my let's say we have a kid and we raise them to where they're like, instead of saying no, we don't have anymore store, for If we don't, I mean we're gonna obviously say no, we don't. But if we kind of raise them to where they respect, hey, mom and dad say that you can't have anymore.
Speaker 4:And I'm not saying that kids are always gonna do that parenting is obviously gonna be hard and kids are gonna be stubborn, but I don't think the best way, because I think parents try to get out of hard situations with kids because they don't want to be in those situations kind of stressful. So they'll just be like let's just say this, because that's just gonna, you know, get them off of that.
Speaker 6:Yeah and I don't think Parenting is very hard. You know, when you it sounds easy to say this, but when you have an actual child who's screaming their head off like giving that candy, you're like, oh, I just want to say something like that, and I think that's where we partner with crossed and say, lord, help me in this moment. Like just tell the truth to my child and I know they're not gonna like it, but that's what you call us to do, like. I feel like that's where the Lord kind of meets us there and goes alongside with us to help us parent.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Nathan, what are your thoughts on Santa? You haven't given me? You've said oh, some people think this way, some. What are your actual thoughts on all of this?
Speaker 2:Thanks for that, z, anytime now for me, I haven't Formed a complete opinion on this yet. That's a first. We want to balance. We want to balance several different things. It is healthy to have a good imagination, a world building and story building, because it helps us to see the wonder and beauty of God that through these worlds we enter in our imagination. God becomes greater in our mind, and so you think about Figures like Gandalf and Lord of the Rings or Aslan and Narnia.
Speaker 2:No, those are not actual those were created by, by men when they're writing. But just different parts of them, like you like. Oh, that the analogy there is Christ or the analogy there is God, and it helps you to see God as more beautiful and more mighty or powerful in certain ways, and so fiction has a Incredible ability to do that. However, I think there's a great point to Purposefully lying or deceiving to your kids that what, what good does that do?
Speaker 2:so, for example, with me growing up, my parents were straightforward. They said you know what your parents got you these presents. It's good to be grateful, good to be thankful and, by the way, god allowed us to be in this position to do so. So, obviously, parents got the presence with, with God blessing them in that way so that they can do that. So that's the route my parents went and I understand that as well. And so Right now because I love I don't know if you wanted all this is a, so I apologize, but right now I lean towards you give different options to your kid and and allow your kid to develop the critical thinking skills and I think pretty soon, with an, with that kind of way of going about it, they're not gonna believe Santa's reel for too long.
Speaker 2:Necessarily you, you encourage them to think all right, santa, I don't know what Priya see drives, but you know, or hurry all that. But how would he go from house to house? What about the places with no houses and no chimneys? What about the chimneys with the fire underneath? And you start walking your kid through some of these things and Eventually the child would come to see okay, santa's probably not real. So, zeke, that's where I land at the moment, kind of open-ended, but I'm open to feedback on that. I have not settled my position on it, but that's kind of where I'm now.
Speaker 4:So with the critical thinking thing and reasoning through the facts, so Would you still give them facts that aren't true? Like would you put presents under the? Would you put presents under the tree that say Santa, or would you, when they go to sleep at night, would you say, oh, santa, ate your cookies. Because if somebody did that about Jesus, that wouldn't be right. Like if somebody was like Jesus was carried out of the tomb by these people. That's not a fact, you know, that's not true. Yeah, so your kid that can't really reason through all the things if they don't have all the facts.
Speaker 2:They're not gonna be able to read. The ability to read the tag be like alright from Santa, but I do get your point.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm just kidding around With some of those things, family rituals and stuff like that. I'm not sure yet how exactly we're gonna go about that yeah. I could imagine me being absolutely annoying. Well aware, I can imagine putting out cookies and milk and being like well, you know, kid, figure it out.
Speaker 4:Who ate the cookie and drink the milk, or or they wake up next morning and they're not going. You're like, hey, what happened?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so no one ate them if I had to lean in a direction, because I think Developing gratitude in your children and yourself as well, it's very important. I'm not gonna entertain Santa for too long. I think you know that they'll figure it out. I'll Encourage them to figure it out sooner rather than later to help develop gratitude. But in the very beginning, three, four years old, with them hearing Santa stories and watching Santa movies, is it the worst thing in the world for them to think of it as a possibility or as Santa as a real person? I would say no.
Speaker 2:But I also don't have to encourage that as well.
Speaker 4:So yeah, I would agree with you. If the kids believe it, let them believe it and figure it out for themselves, but don't it's a lie to him so in in this hypothetical scenario when you're trying to walk the middle line to not make anyone upset Um.
Speaker 2:That's not true. I think this is roughly where I land.
Speaker 3:I'm just kidding. Yours is more clear than mine was, so I can't complain. How do they? I asked the question I thought Isaac was gonna ask how do they even find out about saying in the first place, do you not have to put that lie into them for it to start?
Speaker 2:They go to a mall, okay, and they see a man.
Speaker 3:What do you tell them whenever they say who is that? I?
Speaker 2:Would say that that's a God. Your stuff like.
Speaker 4:Santa, some call him some call yes Anyways.
Speaker 2:So for some of those things both of you are asking for details. I'm not sure yet how exactly it's gonna play out, but for instance there are. Did y'all grow up watching the Santa cartoons?
Speaker 2:Yeah, frosty the snowman and just some of those other things Chris Kringle and and I enjoyed those as a kid. I thought they were a lot of fun. I think they'll know about Santa in those ways. They're gonna be songs about Santa that just if you're around culture, you have the radio on. However, you know well, I say Santa did these things.
Speaker 4:Probably not, but anyways, isaac um, I have something completely different, but I seek a question earlier and he never answered it, which was if we Let our kids believe in Santa and tell them it's real and stuff like this to foster their imagination, when we tell them about stories and bible where the donkey was talking or stuff like that, is it gonna be harder for them to believe that those are real, instead of backwards where we tell them about the bible and say, oh yeah, god made this donkey talk, and then tell them you know well, this didn't happen, yeah good.
Speaker 3:Thank you for calling me out like that. Um, that's where I like the way Nate put it. Um, and when I said I'm on the fence, I really mean that like cause, I'm with you. I don't want to do something that's necessarily harmful for the kid. I don't think there's any Real data to show that because a kid believed in Santa, he's going to walk away from the faith. Otherwise, there'd be a lot more atheists nowadays. Um, there's a lot of atheists.
Speaker 3:There's not as many as you think they are. They just want you, want you to think there's a lot of them. Um, but too, so I'm. I'm not gonna simply say no, santa, because something like that could happen, because you have two Plenty of exhibits in here of people who believed in people who didn't, and we all end up at the same place.
Speaker 3:I think that kind of development happens later in life and we also understood, like, hey, this is a Christmas tradition. None of this was ever expected to be real. No one actually believes it. Like I think the problem would be is if, like, you grew up in someone like 20 something's like no, sounds like a real thing, like there's a cult or something that says sounds real, then we like, okay, well, if that's false, then you know, maybe this Christian thing is false, like I think, because everyone knows that Santa's not real. No one pretends like he's a real being. That's why you don't have people saying, oh well, because Santa's not real, therefore all these other gods aren't real that people claim.
Speaker 3:Um, but back to the fostering imagination, because I can keep beating around the bush, um, I'm would Nate, in the sense of if they find out through culture, they see some fat guy at the mall in a red suit and Fostering that idea of who's dad. I'm like I don't know. Some people say that, uh, this guy called Santa. Like what do you think dad? Like I don't know, I don't think he's real.
Speaker 3:But I mean, some people say that yada, yada, yada, um, kind of not saying yes, it is, but letting them think through it for themselves, like well, here's what people say. You here Tell me what you think about it. And they're like that doesn't make any sense. I'm like, yeah, it doesn't really make much sense to me either. And then kind of let them work through it until I Wouldn't let them get past a very large age before I told him like, hey, this is just so you know, just in case it wasn't clear enough for you, because maybe my kid has low IQ like me. He didn't like, hey, look bro, look a little boy. It's not, it's not real.
Speaker 2:Bro, bro.
Speaker 6:I think that is a great point, though, because I mean there's only so much you can do, you can't. I Think it's when we say we're not gonna let our child, like, believe in Santa. We mean we're not gonna write on the gifts from Santa or say, like Santa, ate the cookies. Like if he sees, like you said, a Santa, you say, well, here's the story.
Speaker 4:What is what?
Speaker 1:some people believe.
Speaker 6:Yeah, here's what some people believe, you know, and when they don't see, obviously, the facts or the tangible proof, then they can come to their own conclusion. But I think, as parents, it's our job not to deceive them.
Speaker 5:Well, I have one more question. I'm sorry, I know we've been going forever. So how, whenever y'all raise your kids like that, how are y'all gonna keep your kid from Telling that to everyone, all the other kids?
Speaker 6:and so that's a great question, that's a really good question, because you don't want your child being mean or being Vengeful about it yeah you know they don't do that your child to go and In quotation room in it for other children.
Speaker 6:But at the same time I think it's a call, a bigger call, to instill in your children kindness that comes from God like, and Love like. We as parents show that love throughout our children, through our children, and they replicate that. But at the same point it's not my child's responsibility to foster that life. Yeah, like I can't I. I Can only do what I'm called to do as a parent. And if my child were to say, well, santa's not real to another child, I don't honestly think that's wrong. That's my point.
Speaker 4:This is an analogy again sounds harsh but if you figured out that God was real and all these other people believe that God wasn't real, should you tell them or not tell them?
Speaker 3:So you're saying Santa's God no?
Speaker 4:I'm saying Santa's not God, so you figure out Santa's not real. Why would you let all these people live in this darkness and believe it when you could, when you could be in the light Until I'm?
Speaker 2:here hey, hey, share, thankness of sure.
Speaker 4:the good news is that I'm just saying and that will help in evangelism with our kid when they get older.
Speaker 3:You all had an easy out and y'all didn't take it. Y'all kids not gonna be around anyone cuz you're going to home school.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so you don't have to worry about that.
Speaker 3:No, that was my, that was my thing, yeah, I don't think it's.
Speaker 4:I don't think, like McKinsey said, to end the question for real, like I don't think it's our, I don't think it's our responsibility to foster lies and other kids if our kid tells somebody.
Speaker 6:I think it's our responsibility to make sure our child maybe does it in a kind way.
Speaker 5:I mean.
Speaker 6:I don't want our children to say Santa's faking your stupid for believing it.
Speaker 3:Well, if they, if a child?
Speaker 6:were to ask my son or daughter Do you believe in Santa wire or whatnot? And they say I don't, because so and so then I feel like I've Done my job, you know what if you said you're gonna let your kid figure it out?
Speaker 4:What if they figure it out at three and then they go to kindergarten? How are you gonna stop?
Speaker 3:your kid from telling other people. See, I'm I'm not afraid to say what y'all are beating around the bush to say is it's not my responsibility If? Well, here's the way I look at. If a kid finds out and my kid goes around, starts saying that I'm not gonna tell my kid, do I wouldn't try. My kid like, hey, once he figures out look, hey, some people still believe this and if they want to believe that, they can. But me and you know it's not real. Buddy bro, just making sure you're still here adjusting, cuz you haven't talked a while. Um, so in that instance I'd like, hey, let's just, let's not talk about with other kids. If who they don't believe it's real, they can believe that. If they believe it, israel, my bad, and but we're not gonna, you know, ruin that for them. And then we'll have that conversation. If he does it and a parent gets mad, like the same way, it's not your job to make sure your kid doesn't convert mine. I'm not gonna make sure mine converts yours.
Speaker 2:What you say, zee, is you tell the other parent, well, you just need to be a better parent.
Speaker 4:Exactly. Get over and stop lying to your kid.
Speaker 2:Yes, you sinner before we wrap up this episode. Does anyone want a final word anything to before we close?
Speaker 6:Obviously. I just want to make it totally clear this is not a salvation issue like this. Wait, it's not. It's not. I think it is Um responsible and I think it's good to have an opinion and to really do your research and really, most importantly, go to the Lord and say, lord, show me where what's right and wrong, convict me if I'm doing this wrong, and then you partner with that and parent, but there's no judgment if you do decide to tell your child about Santa, or I mean, ultimately it's your decision.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm not gonna be happy when she listens to this thing I want to say is this are we like two hours?
Speaker 4:sometimes I think Santa isn't for the kids, it's for the parents. They believe he's. No, no people. People get so into buying, yeah, but being the character of Santa, and buying all these gifts for the further kids, and they want the kids to be excited and Sometimes, if the kids are not excited, they get a little bit hurt and yeah.
Speaker 1:I think I can say something, one of the things my dad taught me when I was older.
Speaker 1:That stuff is. One of the things he did with Santa was to try to get you to appreciate the gifts you get, no matter who gives them to you. Like it seems all the more special if you know dad and mom are gonna get you stuff. So this stranger who I don't really know, is willing to get me something that is still an appreciation for stuff Like I hadn't had before and again like I, I I can. I can definitely see y'all side of that stuff. You can definitely take it too far, but ultimately I don't think if you do it in a healthy way, I don't think Santa is a bad thing, and I would also say deception is like a is a pretty heavy word for that, because you can say the same argument of like, say, your wife comes up to you and says, do I look fat in this? If you say absolutely, honey, you look like a tub of lard, you're being a jerk.
Speaker 4:No, but what if I just say yes?
Speaker 1:I think that's rude. Mackenzie say something for niceties.
Speaker 4:Mackenzie, is it rude if I tell you the truth?
Speaker 3:Her hesitation says this is a whole another podcast episode yeah so.
Speaker 2:So Justin brings up a good point that we do have to bring this episode to a close, and so I'll wrap it up with some form of bow. Justin brings up a good point that in life sometimes there are Situations that come up where full blown honesty Might not always be the wisest call. We might need to be blunt what we say, we need to be careful, and so I see Justin's point that maybe Saying that Santa's real, saying that that's deception, might be a touch strong. So I see that.
Speaker 2:But but anyways we're gonna go home with that Dangerous faith. If you enjoyed this conversation, we'll make sure to tell your friends. Share it on social media. Let other people know about it. This has been Justin Mackenzie, isaac, chloe and Zeke I guess me as well. I've been honest to Nate Williams. Uh oh, are we?
Speaker 1:How are you? We're sorry I had to put back in for just a minute. This is Donald Drake.
Speaker 3:Donald Trump yeah, peace out reeling in the flesh.
Speaker 1:You.