The Team is back to talk about Christian perspectives on the death penalty. Join in the conversation! Let us know what you think by following us on social media and leaving a comment below the "Death Penalty" post.
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The Team is back to talk about Christian perspectives on the death penalty. Join in the conversation! Let us know what you think by following us on social media and leaving a comment below the "Death Penalty" post.
Website: www.dangerousfaith.net
YouTube: Dangerous Faith
Rumble: Dangerous Faith
Instagram: nwdangerousfaith
Twitter: @FaithDangerous
Facebook: @NWDangerousFaith
Nope, I don't want your apology. As a Christian, I don't have to forgive, oh no.
Speaker 3:You know, there's a person about who says you're gonna be judged on every idol word you say.
Speaker 5:So, yeah, I'm pro-demo-divisional. Yeah, that's probably for the people I really want, cause I'm not the biggest college dude.
Speaker 2:We're just waiting for like a couple years.
Speaker 3:He doesn't know how to take a joke.
Speaker 6:Says you Says you, thank you, bro. Why do?
Speaker 2:we invite her. What does she bring?
Speaker 1:Hey, we have something about you every day buddy, how would it make you feel I would agree, I'd be, or?
Speaker 2:sad, I would agree. It makes me happy they're speaking their truth.
Speaker 1:We're gonna go to the nurse and get your head checked out. Something's not connected.
Speaker 2:Now someone said that to you, I'm the biggest savage right now.
Speaker 4:I love it.
Speaker 1:You know, what it is the joke left.
Speaker 4:I don't.
Speaker 1:It's okay, yes, you do when are you, blake's, still here?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I was like oh, oh, oh, that was good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're here at Dangerous Faith. We're not paid. We're recording right now. We are not paid at Dangerous Faith. The only thing that we're paid in is Love, and affection no tongue-lashings and gaslighting. That's all it is here at.
Speaker 4:Dangerous Faith. We are supposed to be talking about the death penalty today. We'll see if we can actually get to that topic. But we have the whole group with us today. Pretty much we have Blake, Justin, Mariah, Isaac, Mackenzie, Chloe and Zeke. So full room, full table, and we'll just be having that conversation on whether the death penalty is biblical, should be allowed. Is it a good thing? I do have a disclaimer we're not experts with these things, but as Christians we do want to. Oh my bad, Zeke. Zeke is the expert here, but outside of Zeke, we're not experts here and we're just talking about it from a biblical standpoint and it's important for us to be just walking through these things and trying to develop a biblical framework. But anyways, I'll open it up. Does anyone want to get started? Death penalty, yay or nay, and why? And we'll just see where this goes, Isaac.
Speaker 3:We should go around the room and everyone say yay or nay.
Speaker 4:Okay, we can do that, Blake, yay, or?
Speaker 2:nay, mine has like nuance too.
Speaker 5:No nuance, no nuance.
Speaker 4:No nuance is allowed. Yay, okay, blake likes to kill people, justin.
Speaker 6:See, I have.
Speaker 2:Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, no nuance, I have either standpoint no nuance yay or nay, yay or nay?
Speaker 4:Alright, so that's a nay, mariah, where do you lean? I don't know either. This can also be where you lean as well.
Speaker 7:I'll say, if I had to choose, no, but still I'd say certain circumstances.
Speaker 2:No, nuance so she's no, so she's no, we got nay.
Speaker 3:Me and Mackenzie. Both think yes, okay.
Speaker 4:Yes, alright, chloe.
Speaker 7:No nuance.
Speaker 4:Okay. So I'm gonna say in certain circumstances.
Speaker 5:No nuance. Yes, see, it's not that hard guys.
Speaker 2:It's not that hard I had to add on a little extra. So we got two fat nannies over here and then, Wait, you didn't say nay yeah really, oh goodness.
Speaker 1:No nuance.
Speaker 4:I guess I'm a yes. Now we're gonna get into the nuance of it. For those of you who said yes, what would be your reasoning? Why Death penalty? Obviously simple definition. Someone does something real bad or multiple bad things, and then society, the government, decides to end that person's life, remove them from society in various ways. For those of you who said yes, what is your reasoning? Anyone wanna share?
Speaker 2:I mean you literally just gave the reasoning.
Speaker 3:I think the Bible supports it.
Speaker 4:The Bible supports it. Okay, so mind if I ask you where.
Speaker 3:No, I don't mind, there is so and I guess you could just. I would just say one would be after the flood, noah. God talks to Noah and he says in one of the verses he says that if a man takes another man's life, then that man's life should be taken by the community, kind of thing. That would be like the government taking that man's life for killing.
Speaker 4:Okay, so I know the passage you're referring to. That's in Genesis now, anyone else? Any other reasons why?
Speaker 7:Well, I think the passage you're all talking about is Genesis 9.6. I actually wrote something down about that. It says whoever sheds the blood of a man by man, shall his blood be shed, forgotten by the main man in his own image. So it's kind of talking about like the punishment needs to fit the crime. So if someone sheds the blood of an innocent person, then that person's blood must also be shed. And also in the Bible in Micah 6.8, I think it is. Yeah, it says do justice and love mercy, so we can show mercy to a criminal but also, at the same time, do justice to them as well, because I think that's fair in a government system, right? If you have a murderer or even, like someone who's killed multiple people, a serial killer, they probably deserve death. I mean, they've killed all these people, so the only just crime for their actions is death.
Speaker 4:Okay, anyone for the yes side, and then I think, because our no friends are outnumbered, I'm going to switch side to play devil's advocate because I think there are good points, but before we do that, we get to the no side. For those of you who think, yes, the death penalty should be a thing and should be practiced. Any other reasonings? Isaac?
Speaker 3:Why would you advocate for the devil?
Speaker 4:Wow, I'm a terrible person. Don't high five him for that that was great. Any other reasonings on the yes side, and then we'll get to the no side.
Speaker 3:Are you talking about like more Bible passages, or just it could?
Speaker 4:be more Bible passages or just more reasoning in general. Oh for me.
Speaker 2:this isn't like a Bible passage, but the government. Well, would it be biblical? I don't know Me and you talked about it before, but the point of the government is to keep the people safe, and so if they decide like that's why I'm for the death penalty, is it's a way of making sure that we can keep the large majority of people safe, keeping them like Keeping dangerous people off the streets, especially ones that are going to like, let's say, a serial killer, if they're gonna keep reoffending. You know we need to protect the betterment of everyone.
Speaker 3:Okay another reason would be like sometimes people miss to find justice, I guess, where people think justice is just like Reconciling people. But like Justice is also like doing like God's justice was punishment. Jesus took our punishment that was. That was just because we deserve the punishment, so Jesus took it for us. So if the government's not giving the people what they deserve like you kill a life, you deserve this punishment then and I believe God backs that up like God says that then they're not doing, they're not just. I don't think that's a just government if they don't do what they're supposed to do.
Speaker 4:Okay, zeke, did you have any thoughts?
Speaker 5:I guess, since we've had biblical reasonings, I'll give like a more. I guess one thing that I would think of is like even as a just society, we want to have practices in place, like y'all been saying, to Protect the well-being of those in the community. And it's not that we like the death, tony and I would you know. We could go into nuances of how it could be better, or maybe there's systems that could be put in place to where, you know, hopefully it doesn't have to happen as much, but I do think there are chance then times where it doesn't need to happen, to where that person can't live in the society that we have and Cooperate, cooperate with everyone else. I don't, I spoke like a five year olds for some reason.
Speaker 5:I think there needs to be just punishment, like I was gonna say, like there needs to be some kind of punishment for the people who refuse to Stop doing evil and now or this does that mean there's gonna be times where innocent people end up like that? Yeah, I think we should work it to where that doesn't happen. But we're humans and Any system that we make it's gonna be flawed. So we try to make the least flawed system we can, yeah, and I'm open to ideas of how to do that. But I don't think we go to the opposite extreme, say, well, we just let everyone go. Like you know, you still have locks on your door properly, so you don't fully trust everyone out in society, otherwise you wouldn't need locks on your door.
Speaker 2:I just a very who use that quote, that's a good point. Yeah, no, that's a club. Heard that from you, heard me say it before.
Speaker 1:He made up that quote. It was Robbie Zachariah said that you don't put yeah, do.
Speaker 2:He has the guys like do you put locks on your door?
Speaker 5:I mean we are one in the same, you know. Oh goodness, all right, so now.
Speaker 4:We are going to move to the no side. So, justin and Mariah, what are your thoughts? For no and again, it doesn't have to be perfect. I'm not asking to cite statistics, but just if you're a no, what are the reasons why for that?
Speaker 7:So I would say no, probably, just because, well, first of all, there's been just a lot of instances where innocent people were put into death. And second thing I would say is, probably Think about this. Think if you had to kill that person. So take now, you're the murderer because you're killing the person that did the killing. To me, that's how I think of it it's kind of like I don't know, but most people I don't know.
Speaker 4:but one murder doesn't make up for another murder, yeah that's what I think.
Speaker 7:So it's like everyone's like oh, I'm fine with it. Well, you're not the one doing it. What if you're the one that had to do it? It's kind of how I think.
Speaker 6:Yeah, if you kill a murderer. There are still the same amount of murders in the world. Yeah, I kind of agree with you, definitely on the the. They're innocent people dying. There's been several innocent people who have been put to death on death row who didn't deserve it.
Speaker 7:Okay, and I just think also it's a worse punishment to literally like Sit someone to just like start it out. They're like rotten a jail. That's worse than diet.
Speaker 4:It's like okay, so I'm gonna stop there and we'll address those two good arguments. One was Innocent people have been put to death and that's a great injustice. So we we don't want to do that if anyone happens to be innocent. And Secondly, some people would argue life in prison is actually worse than the death penalty. So for those of you who are for the death penalty and again I think we brought up a good point I mean, we're not happy people die. We're not like excited at least I would hope not but it just is it good for society? Except for Blake? Blake is happy about the death penalty, Okay. But for those of you who think that the death penalty is a good thing for society, how might you answer some of those?
Speaker 1:So I have a question Do you think there's a difference between killing someone and murdering someone, like in war? We see? You know, soldiers go into battle and they have to kill for their country. But that's something totally different than somebody like intentionally stalking someone, taking their life innocent. You know what I mean.
Speaker 6:Like yes, I agree, there are some matters.
Speaker 1:of self-defense is the right yeah, so at the same time, when it comes to a criminal who this is, though, like this isn't somebody who just stole a candy bar from the grocery Store like this is. Take Ted Bundy, for example, who killed, like so many women so many innocent women. And he was put to death for that. You know, that's like we went back to for society, you know.
Speaker 4:I think that's a good point, chloe. I.
Speaker 7:Think the About how innocent people have been killed in the past. That's something that I wrestle with when I was kind of like researching this topic. But you got to think about it like people are flawed, so that means the government is also gonna be flawed in some areas, so there's not gonna be perfect Justice in that area. Like, yeah, some innocent people might die and I wish I hope we can find ways to fix that. And then to the second argument about like rotting in prison. I thought about that too, because to me it would be 10 times, 10 million times worse to just sit in prison the rest of your life than just to die. But I feel like that maybe could be a risk, just because if you're a murderer, like someone like Ted Bundy, I feel like you know if you got any chance to get out of that cell like go Go outside or whatever like they could take a chance to Kill you or escape or something like that.
Speaker 2:Literally escaped like twice.
Speaker 4:Yeah, he actually did, and he killed more people, so it's just risking the escape risk also maybe to other inmates who are in there as well, depending on how much Socializing they're able to do, like also.
Speaker 2:Do y'all think like so it is the reason why y'all are against the death penalty? Because it seems cruel, is that? So? That's not that. Is that something that y'all would think about like it's a cruel punishment. I.
Speaker 7:Mean, maybe in a sense, but I just think of it as the way. Think about if that was your job, if you were forced to kill somebody, even though he was a murderer, so what would you?
Speaker 2:like you know, it would be murder at that point, like if I, if I had to kill a murderer.
Speaker 2:You would still be killing someone, though, but it's not murder it's not considered murder, like you would have to take, you'd have to take a life. I completely understand what you're saying, like that, that weight of taking someone else's life, and there are, you know, that's a whole nother thing. I know I couldn't be a state executioner, but at the same time, if you're saying, like you know, the death penalty is cruel, well what's the difference between them rotting in a cell starving, don't you think that's cool? I?
Speaker 6:think the starving.
Speaker 2:I don't agree with that Us, they might not, yeah, I mean, let's be honest, like in prison, life is terrible, like you have to Pay for protection. There's commentary you know, sometimes the officers, they are corrupt. So I mean, if you, if you look at it from a cruelty aspect, why would you like you say you're against the death penalty but it's, it's cruel. But then you would say your for life in prison because it's more cruel.
Speaker 7:Not, I'm not, I guess it because it's cruel. Okay, I just, I just this is asking a question like I'm gonna.
Speaker 4:I'm gonna introduce a spiritual element to this, which is often what Christians will say when they're against the death penalty. What about the chance of someone believing the gospel? So, for example, man, if, if you remove someone's life I know I'm deeply emotional If you remove someone's life, you have now removed them their ability to hear the gospel and accept it, because now they're no longer with us. What might you think about that? That now someone can't hear the gospel?
Speaker 7:I think, honestly, if someone was on like death row to be killed for their actions, that would be a great opportunity to show them the gospel. Or even just like go pray with them, tell them that, like if you go visit them, like that's gonna be really painful, but if you go visit them and tell them, hey, I forgive you because God Jesus forgave me, so there should be no reason why I can't forgive you too, and then that opens up an opportunity to maybe share the gospel with them, like right before they die. I mean, they give like the thief on the cross he gave his life to God right before he died. It's possible, yeah, and so I don't think we can. So, chloe, what?
Speaker 4:you would say, is they still could have the chance if they wanted to before execution yeah, blake.
Speaker 2:That's what I was gonna say. Like, when you sit on death row, like you will sit on there for, especially nowadays, through, like because of the appeal process and everything, you will sit on there for years. I mean, there are people have been on death row for decades and you're telling me, like in between those times, people haven't tried to, like you know, reach the gospel. I mean it's not even go like, I don't even. I don't really even like that argument, because what do we say about people like, for instance, we've had a lot of car crashes in Coleman. Okay, you know what if those people never came to Christ? Like are we gonna say that God's cruel for allowing them to die before they even had a chance? It's just one of those things. It's like we have plenty of opportunities, especially in the United States.
Speaker 2:We have plenty of opportunities done to hear the gospel.
Speaker 1:I think too, when we talk about prisoners, like Chloe said, they definitely deserve the opportunity to repent and turn back to Christ. But we know that God might only offer so many chances. You know you can't keep putting it off, putting off, and God is just so. If you did murder you know 20, 30 people there's he's a just God and if our justice system rules that you should be put to death, he can't necessarily he's not just gonna say, oh yeah, you can go free, like I know you killed those other 20 people, but you can go free like that's not a just God. So definitely give them that opportunity and because we serve a God who gives us eternity, you know once they leave this life and they're safe, they get to spend eternity with God and that suffering ends in prison. But at the same time, like he can't just keep us from our sins consequences, totally.
Speaker 3:I see. So I would say it's a two-parter. So as a church and as Christians, we should be preaching the gospel, we should have mercy. The Romans 12. It says Never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God. For it is written vengeance is mine, I will pay, says Lord.
Speaker 3:But then if you keep going into Romans 13, it talks about the government. And when it talks about the government it says for he, the government, is God's servant for your good, but if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. And it talks about how they have been appointed to Right here, first five. Therefore, one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscious. So as Christians, we should be preaching the gospel to people and all that stuff. But as a government you can't say you're just government if you're not serving justice. Like if you're not, because what about those people who were wronged? There's no justice for them. Like when in revelations I don't know where it is, but the saints look down from heaven they're like when are you gonna give us justice for those who wronged us? And stuff.
Speaker 5:It's kind of like that there has to be justice, since Nate's not doing a good job of playing devil's advocate. I have a question. This is one that I struggle with more as a Christian. I still land on death penalty, but it's one that I think that we have to acknowledge. I think it's a pretty good argument on the other side maybe on Justin or Mariah's side is what do you do with someone like Paul or David, who God didn't command to be killed, even though they killed others? We would say today, if we saw that same person, we would say death penalty, but God had a reason to let them live. Why?
Speaker 3:Exceptions are not the rules.
Speaker 5:So what was the reason for the exception? Is there any kind of practice we can put in place so we can know when the exception is?
Speaker 3:I'm not God. God chooses that David should be spared, then he should be spared. But that's not for me to decide if we should go by what God's word says and it's whole truth and live by that and government should do what's right by what God's law says and stuff like that and not be like, okay, well, you know, david was pardoned for this one.
Speaker 3:I'm not saying there can't be pardons and like there can't be people who are pardoned and stuff. I'm not the government. I'm just saying I think that it's biblical that the government needs to serve God's wrath. I guess.
Speaker 4:Now, mariah, justin, again, because y'all are in the minority with this conversation, I want to give you fair time to voice your thoughts, opinions, as we're talking. Do you have any other reasonings, any other things you want to bring up about this that we might want to consider?
Speaker 6:One thing this is a kind of topic. I've talked with a friend of mine at work. One thing he said is back in the day people were more focused on being biblically, having biblical thoughts, judges and things like that, and for elected officials to be sort of spokesmen for God. I would not say our judicial system now focuses too much on that because how our society has changed, so I would say that we don't necessarily just how our judicial system is. I don't think we rightly represent God with what we do.
Speaker 6:So, I think when you do something like that, you need to be very careful that that needs to be your reasoning behind stuff that wasn't worded correctly.
Speaker 3:So I'm not. This isn't a gotcha or anything, but what we're talking about. You said that our justice system isn't like godly, I guess. Is that what you were trying to say? I guess it's what I'm saying. Okay, I don't know if I agree with that, just because I'm pretty sure when Paul wrote Romans about being subject to the government, the government in Rome was persecuting Christians and stuff. It could have been Nero, I don't know who was the governor or whatever.
Speaker 4:Nero was around that time. I'd have to look at specific dates.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but so when Paul wrote that it wasn't, he was saying be subject to governments because God puts them in power, kind of thing, so I don't know if that's really a good argument.
Speaker 5:I mean also I mean I'm not trying to just roast Justin, because I mean I think he has some fair points. I think that I get it's coming from a hard compassion. So and I'm not saying I'm the authority on this we joke around about being an expert.
Speaker 4:We're going to get to the compassion part after your comment.
Speaker 5:But I mean, I'm kind of just going to reiterate what you already said. I mean you even have Jesus whenever he's before Caesar, and Caesar's like I hold your life in my hands. He's like you wouldn't have power if God hadn't given you power. God gives power to all and I think it's Paul, or Jesus wanted to, who say like God's the one who puts all the people in authority. Unfortunately, that means even the people we don't like. Yeah, so that's a good point.
Speaker 4:That's just I think, going on about a little bit about compassion, one problem that many people have with the way we go about our judicial system, our laws, our prisons, is we focus on the punishment. You do something wrong, you're punished for doing something wrong, and I get that. That's justice right. However, what people want to shift, many people want to shift our system towards, is reconciliation. So if you're a criminal, you commit various crimes, and I get, some crimes are worse than others. But if you commit certain crimes, the goal of the judicial system should be to reintegrate you into society, to try to help you, to try to restore you, to try to build those relationships back, as something along the way got lost. So I could see, if you come at it from that angle, maybe we don't focus as much on the punitive side, which is you did something wrong, I'm going to punish you, but more on the relationship side of how can we restore people back into society. I don't know if there are any thoughts there.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I really think we should. I wish we could get a better system put in place for that. I think they've done it in smaller countries where it's a little bit easier to kind of do this on a mask.
Speaker 6:They've had better, huge, lower, huge it's. It's hard to do that. I agree with you.
Speaker 5:No, and I'm not making the excuse saying we, because we're huge, we can't.
Speaker 5:I'm saying that we need to find a good way that works for a big country like ours and obviously there's been studies and stuff shown that there are ways to do it and I think that should.
Speaker 5:That's our middle ground, I really think. I think if you're on the side where it's like no death penalty, no, nothing, but you still understand that people need help and people need punishment for the crime, and then you're on the far right side where you're like, yeah, we need death penalty and people need to pay for the punishment, I think you meet in the middle at how do we help the people who we can help and how do we avoid putting people who are going to harm us more back into society. I think there's a middle ground there where we can help the majority and then we lessen the amount of death penalty we have to do. But we, I think we are still going to need it because people are still messed up and some people they don't want to be get better and we can only help people so much we're not God and eventually we have to send them to him and he has to take care of them, because we can't.
Speaker 2:We live in a fallen world, so there's not going to be a I mean, we all know this is not going to be a one size fits all solution. Like it's just sin is sin until God comes back and cleans the world. You know it's something that we're going to struggle with for a while.
Speaker 5:Yeah. And one other thing like I said, I'm all for reforming their system, that we have it now. One other thing I would say that and I would apply this to a lot of different situations it even applies to people who would say, like you know what, I don't like the church because it's done this or that, or I've seen church hurt, and that's fair. People have done bad. I'm not justifying that, but something that sticks back my head is and I'm going to misquote it but someone once said an improper use of something Doesn't nullify the thing itself. So, in other words, just cause someone did something poorly or let's say, a church, they poorly treated someone badly. That doesn't mean all churches are bad, just cause someone didn't do the right thing.
Speaker 2:Are you talking about the Frank Turrick example, where he said like if someone plays Mozart?
Speaker 5:Yeah, it's like that yeah they play the note wrong.
Speaker 2:It's not Mozart's fault.
Speaker 5:Yeah, like it's. Anyway, if someone plays Jesus Are there. There's supposed to be a reflection of Christ. That's not cross fault whenever they do wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not our fault. We, we, yeah.
Speaker 4:I think I think those are good points, mariah and Justin. I think for me even though I am reluctantly for the death penalty in Certain really strong situations, but gives me pause, the greatest thing that gives me pause is the thought that if there is any Chance, you have the wrong guy that's my thing, that is putting someone innocent to death is one of the most evil things a government can do.
Speaker 4:So that thought alone. The biblical arguments I hear aren't as persuasive, because I think that you know people are allowed before they're executed. You can talk to a chaplain, you can talk to whoever you would like, you know phone calls and the like, that you can talk to who you want to. That that stuff isn't as persuasive. But the thought of getting something wrong and putting someone to death, I will, that thought alone makes me pause and I think it should only be done in rare, rare, awful situations where you can have as close to 100% Certainty as possible. And I, you know so, just just my. I definitely understand how that can be difficult. But, mariah and Justin, any other thoughts before we head off? I know y'all, like I said, y'all are in the minority, so I want to give you your, your time to talk about whatever you would like to talk about.
Speaker 7:I don't know. I guess I would just say would anyone alter change their opinions if how I put this like, say, someone like I don't know like murdered your significant other, your entire family, and so they were gonna be put on death row, but you had to kill them. So what'd you do that?
Speaker 4:Mariah's thing is and I see the the emotional weight of this it's easy for us to say, yeah, death penalty, whoo. But what if we individually, are the ones that have to do it? Would that give you pause? What do y'all think about it's? It's emotionally, rhetorically powerful. What do y'all think about that?
Speaker 2:Okay, so, I guess Just like break, not break it down. But, like for me, I look at the death penalty in a logical sense of like we need to keep people safe. But I'm I'm with you when it comes to the emotional aspect of it because, yeah, to take somebody's life, regardless if they deserve it or not, there's a huge weight. I mean, my grandfather fought in Vietnam and you can just see the pain in his eyes when he has to think about what he's done. Even if it was just it, taking a life is a huge thing on you. And my thing is is I, would you be able to do it? Would I be able to do it? No, I can't kill somebody, that's the thing. But that's why I trust. I trust in the like. I rely on the government to hand out.
Speaker 4:You're okay, as long as someone else does the.
Speaker 2:I mean I look at it like this, like it, I let God, if the government is wasn't put in, was put in by God and Mean you talked about this before. There's some things emotionally that God does that it's like it can. It'll confuse us emotionally. It's like why did he do that? But I trust in God and I know that God tells me to obey him, obey his commands, and I also know that for me personally, I'm supposed to be forgiving.
Speaker 7:So yeah, I also wanted to add, as we close, just how there is such in a strong emotional connection with this, like you were saying, mariah, because when you think about it, every single person in this world is made in God's image, so why would we want to kill that? But sometimes, sometimes they deserve the justice, I guess. But that is a tough question that you asked, mariah. Nobody would want to put anybody innocent to death, and Certainly not even like some people ask people that are pro the death penalty, like, well, if you say you're pro life, then how are you pro death penalty? But that's the difference, right there is that the child and the womb is innocent and so we can't. It's kind of the same thing like if someone is in south, we don't want to kill them.
Speaker 7:But, if they're guilty, then we definitely yeah, we do so. That's kind of similar to what I was gonna say. But, like back on, the people that said kind of I think, like Blake and Isaac that said, trust the government, but the government literally has laws on abortion, killing babies. So what would y'all say to that? And that's trusting the government some states.
Speaker 2:When we say, when we say trust the government, we mean it's the same thing as like trusting what God hasn't stated human, like I trust the commandments and the laws that God has put in, but it's not my fault and it's certainly not the fault of God's whenever human ways perverted.
Speaker 7:Yeah that's a good argument. Most of human laws now are turning into against God's laws.
Speaker 2:I'd say it's a good point. No, it's a great point. You kind of what I was trying to bring up earlier.
Speaker 4:That's a great point, mariah. We're gonna trust the government for the death penalty, but then they the government institutes pro abortion type laws.
Speaker 3:Go ahead the Bible is anti-abortion and I feel like the Bible is pro-abortion, so I'm gonna trust the government. No, the Bible is anti-abortion and pro-death. I said it wrong, my bad, so I Trust the government and we are all law-abiding citizens. I hope we all can vote. I speed occasionally, so I can't be, included sometimes I text
Speaker 3:and drive so you do your part to Make the government as biblical as it is. The government, whoever's in charge there. They have to. They have to account for what they do. Yeah, you still trust them. God put them in position I feel like that's what the Bible says to do back on the. Would you do it? I'm not in that position, but there are people who are in that position. Do you think that we should have Navy Seals? They killed bin Laden because he was a terrorist terrorist and I think that was just there.
Speaker 4:Are people out there who are putting those positions to do those, do those jobs and they sign up for that stuff because you're right, isaac, but I think Mariah is pointing to the rhetorical emotional weight of it's easy to be pro death penalty when someone else pulls the trigger. So she's asking you again this is a personal thing how would you feel about it if you had to do the execution?
Speaker 3:I don't know, I'm not there, but I'm just saying like that's how I've never been faced. I've never been in front of someone had to pull the trigger.
Speaker 4:So it, just it gives us pause about being forced something. The goal is to get us thinking, do you think?
Speaker 3:Hitler should have been killed. Yes, would you. If you were staying that room, would you have pulled the trigger? Yes, okay.
Speaker 4:Mariah is asking you okay. For me, the answer is I don't know.
Speaker 3:I don't know the the case of this person. If I saw the case, it let's say Ted Bundy, all these people, yes, I think I would pull that trigger.
Speaker 4:So you answered her question. That's just what she's asking, zeke.
Speaker 5:Let me throw the question back and well, actually, first Let me say what I thought you were gonna say, but you didn't say exactly. Is we appeal back to scripture? So yes, on the one hand, god put certain government officials in place and he ordained certain things. That's what the Bible seems to be saying, unless I'm wrong. But at the same time, that doesn't mean whenever Jesus said, give the Caesar voice Caesar's, he didn't say that we, if it's opposed to God, we go with God.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 5:But if it's with God, we go with God. Yeah, god is the ultimate authority. So if the government can be pro-abortion and we still be pro-life cause, that's God's position. God can be pro-death penalty and the government be pro-death penalty, and then whenever they're in line with God, we go with them.
Speaker 2:That's literally what I was trying to explain.
Speaker 5:Yeah, that's right, man. But to my second point of sometimes the emotional weight is only difficult whenever you're further removed from the crime. So imagine that someone that same person is breaking into your house right now and they're killing your family in the act and you have a gun and you can shoot them. Would you shoot them?
Speaker 7:Well, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 5:So your pro-death penalty at that point, right there. What changes whenever it's 20 years removed? Did they not commit the crime for 20 years previous to that?
Speaker 7:Wait, explain Like if it was actively happening, yeah, do it. But if it's like just they're sitting there and they have nothing to do with my personal life, they killed somebody else. I don't want to kill them.
Speaker 2:So it's only shooting your family for it when it affects you.
Speaker 7:I mean.
Speaker 2:Not to be like, but I'm just Like if it's in self-defense, yeah.
Speaker 7:If it's like self-defense, yeah.
Speaker 2:So what's the difference? If, let's say, they're killing your family in the moment, could you pull the trigger if it was 20 years later, after they killed your family? This person needs to be put to death killing your family?
Speaker 5:I don't think so Good for gift though.
Speaker 4:I think time does play a little bit of a role.
Speaker 4:No, I'm saying it does, but so for example, someone's been on Death Rose and there are examples of this ever since. They were, you know, 19, 20 years old. By the time they're executed they're 60 and 70, they legitimately will say like I'm sorry for what I did, I'm 65 years old. I'm not that dumb 19-year-old I was. And so I get what Mariah is saying, even if it is more emotional, rhetorical as opposed to logical, that there is a bit of a difference in a person who's 70 being executed versus on the spot self-defense. They're 19 years old, break into your home and you kill them. Time, I don't know if I'm able to say it well, time makes a bit of a difference.
Speaker 5:No, I agree it does, but does that mean it's any less just?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say no. I can actually answer yours better. Answer that question better. If someone killed my family or whatever and I had to be the one to pull the trigger, I wouldn't be comfortable with it. But I would do it. But I would have to really check my heart. Am I doing it for vengeance or am I doing it because that's the law? If you're saying like, hey, blake, they killed your family, we're going to put them to death, but the law requires that you have to shoot them?
Speaker 7:That's actually really good, because I'd say, like vengeance and revenge would be the first thing that comes to my mind.
Speaker 2:definitely, because vengeance is God, and God's only.
Speaker 5:I want to go back. I want to actually agree with Mariah on something, because I can't say what I would or wouldn't do. None of us really can. We don't know. But I would like to think that when we talk about forgiveness even over little things such as like, let's say, someone's harmed you, or even over bigger things, let's say, someone's abused you when we talk about forgiveness, it's not necessarily forgiveness. Sometimes we get mixed up with trust. Yeah, just because I forgive someone for something doesn't mean I trust that person. If someone steals money from me, I'm not going to trust them with my bank account information and other stuff, but I can still forgive them for what they've done and I take on the debt. But my relationship with them is going to be different and for some people it might be you're going to spend your life in jail because I can't trust you not to kill more people. And it might be to the point to where, hey, you spent your life in jail and then the death penalty comes in for some people and hopefully very little people.
Speaker 7:Yeah, and I heard you say, mariah, with the time difference of like the 20 years. What's the difference? What you said, forgiveness, but I think it's also possible you can forgive someone but still then be put to death with the death penalty. I don't think forgiveness requires them to just be let go, because justice still needs to be served, right, but you can still forgive them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true. Your consequence. You can't outrun your consequences. So whatever you do, there will be a consequence, no matter how sorry you are, no matter how far removed you are from it. Your consequences. It's just a thing. You do something, you have consequences for it, good or bad.
Speaker 4:That's a great angle, though I'm glad we're talking about this. As Christians, let's use the emotional but very real, raw potential of someone kills your whole family. As Christians, can we forgive and not put them to death? Or should we put them to death? I'm not asking it, well, but anyways. Does being a Christian imply that we should not give them the death penalty?
Speaker 1:Okay. So in the scenario you suggested of, let's say, somebody kills my entire family, the Bible does say like we shouldn't even be resentful to that person, because as much as they are undeserving of forgiveness, so are we. Even if I say something, as much as I hate you in your heart, that's the same as murder. That's what Jesus says. And so if they actually did murder, yes, they committed the action, but we're all guilty of committing sin. Now, do I think you should forgive them? Yes, do I think they can still be put to death? Yes, because, like we've said, justice does have to be served.
Speaker 4:Justice has to be served. Now, what if someone responds with but God gave you mercy.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 4:He also gives oh man.
Speaker 1:I do want to say, though, in this scenario we're not the ones 100% decide and like it's going through the justice system too. So, even though we've forgiven them and we can even, you know, go to the court and say I have forgiven them, they can take that into account, but the crime's been committed. Like it goes through the justice system here in America, so like it's not just me even though I forgive them, like it still has to go through that process.
Speaker 4:More systems and structures are a part of it. I agree, I agree.
Speaker 3:It's an institution that does it.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:The government, okay, but God gave me mercy Okay. So I think we should give people mercy, but there's still the government, still has to do with the government's for or it's not just so. Mercy, yes, jesus gave me mercy, but that doesn't mean that my consequences down here for the actions I do like if I speed, I get a speeding ticket Right that's because it's on earth, like it's earthly justice Jesus paid for was eternal justice is kind of how I would put it.
Speaker 4:I think y'all are answering these questions well. So, as we head off and we finish up this episode, does anyone have any quick final thoughts on this topic?
Speaker 7:I think it's important definitely to keep an open mind with this, just because it is something that shouldn't be taken lightly. It's a human life.
Speaker 4:I agree.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and if one thing we didn't talk about is if someone got to bed, god forbid, I hope no one ever does.
Speaker 5:But if it was ever happened to something to me, something like that. Someone I love was killed and I found it in me. I think that would be one of the best ways to share the gospel is to go to that person who is rightfully convicted and in prison and let them know that you've forgiven them because of what crosses them for you. If you're able to do that, I can't see a much more better way to share the gospel with someone. Now, that doesn't I'm not saying let them out of prison, Keep them in there. I don't want them out.
Speaker 7:And also, forgiveness is a choice too. You have to decide you're going to forgive them, and that doesn't mean you're automatically going to feel at peace with everything. It's not what that means. It just means you made that choice to forgive them of their actions.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I'll close this with a story. So if you've heard of Richard Wormran, if you haven't, blake, go reading. I keep telling you I will. His wife. This was in the World War II. His wife's family was killed by a bunch of Nazi soldiers. I believe it was Spoilers. Yeah, anyways, long story short. They get down their life a couple years later and it turns out it's very likely that the person who was staying in the hotel they were at was the same guy who killed her family. Like there's only a few people that could have been there. And after talking to him, her husband was talking to me and he figured out I think you're the one who killed my wife's family.
Speaker 5:He shared the gospel with this man. Man came to faith and Christ. He says my wife is downstairs asleep right now, like 3 am or whatever, and he says we're going to go down there and we're going to tell her exactly who you are and she's going to get up, hug you and go make you something to eat. And he's like I don't see how she could do that. He's like, because of the forgiveness that Christ has given her, they went down there, woke his wife up. He said hey, I got someone I wanted to introduce you to, didn't get any kind of warning, told her. She gave him a hug, kissed him on the cheek and went and made him something to eat. She said you've repented from what you did and I forgive you, and I think that's how we should live as Christians too we forgive those who wrong us. Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 4:That's. That is a wonderful story. I would check out the ministry voice of the martyrs. They do great work. Well, again, this was the whole whole group here today. We had Blake, justin, mariah, isaac, mackenzie, chloe and Zeke, and I think this was a great conversation. Follow us on social media Instagram, twitter. Well, now it's called X, but that's another conversation. Facebook, our website, dangerousfaithnet, and we'll keep coming back with more conversations.
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