Dangerous Faith
Dangerous Faith is a ministry that strives to light a fire inside of Everyday Christians to live radically for Christ so that we can glorify God by advancing His Kingdom.
Dangerous Faith
#51: Dangerous Conversations– Why Did Hunter Leave the Christian Faith?
Hunter opens up about his transformation from a steadfast believer to a skeptic in what promises to be a deeply thought-provoking episode. He shares his journey from being welcomed with open arms into Christianity, experiencing a strong sense of belonging and finding his purpose, to his doubts and skepticism during his senior year at college. Listen to the episode to learn more about his story.
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Hey all, welcome to the dangerous faith YouTube channel and, depending on how the audio is on, this video will, we might also upload it to our podcast as well. I hope everyone's doing alright With me. I have the one and only hunter. Hunter is a dear friend of mine. He was my best man at my wedding all the way back in 2020 and I love him a lot. He means a lot to me. He's just, he's just been an incredible friend. Now we are going to talk a little bit about his de-conversion. At one point he was a Christian and now he's not, and he's going to tell his story a bit about that. So well, but before we get started, I'll introduce him. A hunter how are you doing? Doing?
Hunter:well, how about you?
Nate Williams:I am doing great. It's been a busy day, but I'm glad to be able to talk with you, Very excited. So we're going to go ahead and jump in. Hunter First question Alright, so you were a Christian, but there was also a time before that when you weren't a Christian at the very beginning. So there's like a conversion and then a de-conversion. So let's talk about that. Can you describe your life before you became a Christian?
Hunter:That's pretty, pretty broad, broad spectrum of time, but I would say, like the time right before I became a Christian, like that last few years beforehand, I would say that you know, I was in kind of a I call it an in-between place. You know I was in transition. I had graduated high school but I had been in community college. We didn't really feel like a full transition into that like college life at that time. I was just kind of not really trying as hard as I could in community college. I didn't really feel like I had a path in life. I felt like I was lacking direction and purpose and I would say that that in general felt kind of similar to like my general disposition for my life at that point, which is a lack of direction, a lack of purpose or in a desire to find a purpose and higher meaning.
Nate Williams:Okay, so lack of purpose, lack of general direction, and then, from there, you eventually became a Christian. And why was that? What led you to becoming a Christian from that life situation?
Hunter:Yeah, I mean. Well, it was, you know, one person who kind of got me started on that. He was a coworker of mine named his name was also Nate, but he was a coworker of mine and he had been evangelizing to me on and off because I was a lifeguard, so we had a lot of time to ourselves to talk and parse out questions and things like that, and I just felt like he really took an interest in me and cared about me and his family was very welcoming and you know so it was just kind of like a slow introduction to things, but not only like the you know warmth and welcomeness that he showed me, but I also felt like, as I started to believe more and understand more this was. I saw it as a purpose and a path and a higher calling that I've been looking for.
Nate Williams:Okay, so so it kind of filled something in your heart. Maybe there's some fulfillment there that you found in Christianity and I guess from there, as you were a Christian during that time span, I guess what was that like? What was it like being a Christian for you? Like? What did it feel like? What did you think like? If that makes any sense.
Hunter:Yeah, I mean, I feel like I really grew and developed and matured as a person over time, you know, through being a part of the church and being Christian. But I, I don't know, I mean it was everything to me. You know, I was at church all the time. Almost all my friends were from church. Yeah, I mean, you know, even when I went off to college, like I saw it out another group, you know, another church group. And so for me it was yeah, it was everything. I was very involved.
Nate Williams:You know some of my sweetest memories. I remember you and I serving at the church in different capacities a young adult ministry just a lot of good memories, with events and discipleship. Sweet times for me for sure. And okay. So now we're going to go on the other side. When did you start to lose your faith? Was it like a specific moment that you can point to, or was it a process? What are your thoughts there?
Hunter:It was definitely a process. I felt like I had always had doubts and questions, but those started to widen over time and I stopped being able to kind of justify to myself both theologically and philosophically. You know I couldn't really like parse out these problems that I was having, and so it was kind of a slow process that really started to ramp up in my senior year of college. As I was leaving, that was really started to start having some pretty serious doubts.
Nate Williams:So it was a process that maybe quickened through about your senior year of college, from what I'm hearing. So, all right, this gets into the nitty gritty. What are the reasons why you left the faith? What are the reasons?
Hunter:Yeah, well, I had several questions that I couldn't really find satisfactory answers to. So that was number one. They just kept coming up and I would ask several different people who are educated, seminarily educated, and they just didn't really have any satisfactory answers. So those were kind of those potholes in my faith and people kept just saying just pray about it, just read and try and look for answers and just hold out and have faith. But when you have a pothole you have to fill it in with something substantial or else as you keep driving over that pothole it just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger and eventually it becomes undriveable. So there were those questions, but then my confidence in our ability to actually find and comprehend objective truth really started to weigh in over time and I also felt kind of what led me down that path was also my increasing doubts and lack of confidence in the biblical canon and the historicity and integrity of the Bible.
Nate Williams:Okay Okay. So from the sound of it it doesn't sound like something. There was, like this traumatic event, something horrible happened to you inside the church. It was mainly intellectual, Is that right?
Hunter:Yeah, yeah, it was almost entirely intellectual, yeah.
Nate Williams:Okay, and so going off your answer, it was things like how can we trust the Bible? How do we know the Bible is true? How do we know the Bible comes from God? Was it those kind of questions? Yeah.
Hunter:I would say a question is like that, as well as just theological questions, that there are some inconsistencies, okay, okay.
Nate Williams:And then so that kind of speeds up, but more and more, eventually like an avalanche or a snowball or whatever analogy you want to use, and then you decide okay, I'm no longer a Christian. I do not identify when you left. What was life like? What changed for you once you no longer called yourself a Christian?
Hunter:Yeah. So when I graduated college, I had been, like I said, super involved in the church and super involved in different youth groups young adult groups, student groups is probably a better word. That had been a huge part of my life. It took up most of my time and I felt kind of like, subconsciously, I was like holding out because I was part of this leadership and there weren't a lot of guys to lead these groups and so once I left, I was like, okay, I'm going to be a Christian and I was also having this kind of existential crisis, you know, crisis of faith.
Hunter:I felt extremely lonely. I mean, it was very difficult for me because not only was I away from my friends, I moved to a new city, I had a new job that I didn't really like very much. I didn't like the place that I was living. There's a whole lot of negative things that were happening in my life at the time, but that kind of exacerbated that difficulty. But it was also the fact that when you are a person of devout faith, you put everything into that, you put your identity. That's where your friends are, that's where your whole life is. Literally you say you're born again, you died to your old self and you're born again to a new self or as a new person, and so that all hinges on Jesus' resurrection and your faith in that. And so when that crumbles away, everything else crumbles away too. So you have to once you fall, you have to get up and reconstruct everything. So that was extremely difficult for me, and I also felt like it wasn't something that I could really talk about.
Hunter:Hold on one moment.
Nate Williams:Yeah, go ahead. My cat is deciding to meow a lot, so hold on no worries. Hey, why do you like this? Okay, hello everyone. This is Finn, and he's a little monster, so let me go put him somewhere and I'll be back. Hunter, you keep with where you are. Apologize for the interruption. I'm so sorry about that, hunter. Keep on going.
Hunter:Yeah, no worries. I would say that, like, what also made it more difficult was I just kind of felt isolated and I felt also scared to come and talk about, like what my conclusions were, what I had come to. So it took time and I had told select people about it, but it took a long time and there was a lot of kind of suffering in between. So it was just extremely difficult to kind of parse all of that out and to kind of come to grips with that, because I was just kind of going at it alone at that time.
Nate Williams:Going at it alone and, like you said, a loss of community identity, and that's difficult to rebuild and takes time, and so I'm sorry to hear that. What would you call yourself now so that you can use? There's atheist, agnostic, seeker, none, and oh any. What would you call yourself now as a label, if? What would be the most accurate descriptor?
Hunter:I would definitely say agnostic. I think that agnostic, but I do still believe that there was some beginning to the universe and there had to be a power of some kind. You know I believe in, like the cosmological argument, but I don't believe that it is something that we can understand or know.
Nate Williams:So would you be open to like that sounds a little bit like theism. Maybe God started the universe like a wound up the watch. Whatever analogy just let it run with would be somewhat deistic, or is that a little too strong?
Hunter:See, that's the thing is like. I feel like that is a little bit too strong. But you know, a power, you know, and our comprehension outside of space and time, right, you know, like it is kind of what you call it, but I would say that we can't know what that is or what that means.
Nate Williams:Yeah, Okay, so maybe maybe a tad strong, but something out there that started the universe. Would you be open? Let's say, somehow those intellectual questions are answered and you found some stance on the Bible like, oh, I could, I could agree with that and there were maybe some aspects of Jesus there as a reaction, the existence of God, that you found a little bit more convincing. Would you be open to coming back to the faith or do you feel like that doors pretty closed, I think?
Hunter:that I, you know, I never say never right but I think that I think that for me I'm pretty, pretty skeptical at this point in time and I don't know if I'd ever be as fervently about it, you know, as I was before. So maybe, but I don't know. I just have heavy reservations.
Nate Williams:You sound very wary, very wary to commit yourself to that level that you were before, which makes sense. You don't want to get burned. You don't want to, you know, have another massive shift in your life, I'd imagine, and so that makes sense. So now we're going to shift a little bit. As you know, Hunter, I love apologetics, and so we're going to talk a little bit about apologetical type issues. And the next question for you is what would you tell someone who says that without God, there doesn't seem to be a fulfilling purpose to life, hope for the future like a big picture, reason to live and all those kind of things? What would you say to someone who would tell you that?
Hunter:Yeah, I definitely was confronted with that when I first left, but I I guess it's like to put it bluntly and I'll expand on this in a second but like to put it bluntly, like you either find a purpose to live or you die. You know, you can't live without hope. You can't live without a purpose to continue on right. If you're looking for a one to one direct replacement for what you find in God, you know, like, if you want a roadmap to your life and someone who's telling you what to do, I don't think you're going to find that, you know, unfortunately, right. But because the conclusion that I came to is because there is no higher purpose, because there is no, you know, guy in the sky telling you what to do, right, like you can do whatever you want and it's very freeing and it's also very scary at the same time.
Hunter:It's kind of like right, you're, I don't know, I guess you're like being pulled along in a tug of boat, you know, versus like being out in the open ocean by yourself, you know, and you can go anywhere. So for me, I just I realized that because there is no like higher calling to follow and no moral imperative to do things a certain way, you know you're free to do what you want, and that also kind of helped me, because there are always people that I was comparing myself to or things that I wanted to do that other people were doing or whatever. But I don't really feel that that is like as much of a stressor for me anymore, because life is a series of trade offs and you know, in order to get a lot of money, you have to work hard or be an heiress or like whatever you know, but at the end everyone dies and everyone is forgotten. So you know, whatever you can find that gives you fulfillment, like you know, I see no problem with that.
Nate Williams:Got you. So tell me if I summarize this correctly Without God, there might not be this overarching purpose to life that applies to everyone like an ultimate meaning, but instead we kind of can pick and choose our meaning or our purpose. We're kind of like we're out on the water, we can decide where we're going to go, and you found that with this way, being agnostic, there's less of a comparison Like oh, I got to match this person, I got to do that, I got. So it's like you feel freer in a way. Would that be accurate?
Hunter:Yeah, I would say that's a pretty good summary of that.
Nate Williams:Okay, well, good Now. I sent you a couple. I should have sent you this days ago, but I'm going to talk with you about the what I call the secular argument for being religious, which sounds funny, but I'll explain. Study, study show. Sometimes I want to qualify I'm not saying this applies to everyone that on average religious people not. Again, speaking generally, on average religious people tend to give a little more to charity, tend to tend to, let's see, adopt at a higher rate. I think evangelicals adopt children at twice the rate of the average population. I think there's a link in America between being religious and being happy, compared to not being religious and being happy, like the rates of happiness are higher, so on and so forth. You could talk a little bit about volunteering life span that in the US it tends to be. Those statistics look better the more religious you are. And so I have a secular argument for you, hunter, why you should join your local church. Here it is If you found a mainline Protestant church that, let's say, had a very progressive view of the Bible, maybe good teachings, you don't have to believe the miracles.
Nate Williams:Jesus was like a good man who tried to do good for the world. Let's see, that's our goal, that we're just trying to be good people and help those around us, and this way you kind of get to be religious, but you don't have to believe all those things in the Bible that you're having trouble believing. So let's say miracles are out the door, and this way you have community, you can be kind of religious. There are symbols and rituals, some things you might miss I'm not sure Holidays that are Christian-ish, let's say, a mainline Protestant denomination like the United Methodist Church or Lutheranism or United Church of Christ, that you're then going to be able to reap some of those benefits. You'll tend to be among those who are happier and they give more and they serve more, and lifespan tends to be longer that you should join a church or some religious organization. For those reasons, what do you think? Convincing, not convincing.
Hunter:Well, I think that what I would be curious about is more religious. You said If you're more religious than the more likely you are to do these things, whereas I'm not sure if this study says it is not religious, religious, somewhat religious, if it's a sliding scale or if it's just a binary choice. But I guess I would ask what counts as religious? Is it just going to church, being part of a church community, or is it believing?
Nate Williams:I would say being a part of a church community is a major aspect of this because, let's be honest, a lot of Christians in the United States are what I call functional atheists. Other than the hour or two they're at church on a Sunday if they even go the rest of their life they look just about identical to non-Christians. So I think being a part of a church community would be a major factor in being considered religious. Yeah.
Hunter:I mean in my estimation number one. I think that the reason why people donate more to charity I also think that churches could be counted as a charitable organization in these studies. Regardless, even if it wasn't the case, I think donating more to charity, doing more volunteer work, adopting more, is purely based on their belief, right Belief that this is morally good or morally right. This is what I should be doing and, depending on the denomination, or if you count devosism as a denomination or a whole other sect or whatever, right, you could even some people even view it as like oh, I'm basically hedging my bets and buying heaven points or something. You know what I mean. So I think that they're doing what God wants them to do, not really what I don't know. If you was good to be charitable, right. But I also feel that they feel that is what is right for them and it aligns their moral code. But if you don't believe that, I feel like you would be forcing yourself to do those things.
Nate Williams:So you would take that argument and you would say the belief matters, not just partaking in the rituals. And you, as an agnostic, even if you went through the motions with the rituals and were part of a community, you feel like, because the belief's not there, that the benefits might not necessarily apply, like you know greater happiness and stuff like that.
Hunter:Yeah, I would say so. I think that, like everybody in the hierarchy of needs, right, everybody needs community and security and fulfillment and things like that. And I feel like church for a lot of people can provide that. But if you find that it doesn't provide that, going to that place and doing those things, I don't think you won't reap those same benefits, whether that's because you believe or I know plenty of people who just go because they like the people there. They don't even really believe, you know, and they go along to get along kind of thing. You know everyone else donating to the charity offer $5 in the basket, yeah, whatever, yeah, like. So in my estimation, the best way to live is to just find something that's fulfilling for you and you know meets your needs as a human being. And you know if someone wants to be part of a religious organization and that fellows are needs and, yeah, all means, go ahead. You know I have no qualms with that.
Nate Williams:So it sounds like you're not going to be going to the local Lutheran church and signing up. Is that right yeah?
Hunter:probably not. But if my wife wants to go, then you know we're off to the church, you know.
Nate Williams:So I guess we'll turn to our final question for the interview conversation with Hunter. In my experience with those who have left the faith, there are a lot of different reasons they'll give. Sometimes people are just it's don't think it's that important. Sometimes there's trauma and abuse. They've had a really bad experience. Sometimes it's intellectual, like it sounds like yours is just some questions weren't being answered. But with all the conversations I've heard, I haven't heard them all. So just for, I guess, disclaimer, very few people say they left the faith. People say they left because of Jesus. Jesus is the central figure to Christianity. According to Christian Orthodox tradition, fully God, fully man, died on the cross for our sins. You've heard all that and you understand all that. So I guess my question to you, hunter, as we head towards the end of our conversation what are your thoughts on Jesus, his life, his ministry, his teachings? Right now I'll answer them.
Hunter:For me, I personally think that we don't like are we talking about Jesus the actual person or what we know about Jesus through the Gospels? Because, like, I feel like you know what we know about Jesus through the Gospels is kind of unreliable. I feel like there's definitely been a lot of legend-making in the thousands of years that you know the Bible's been around. But you know what's in the Bible I don't really have any qualms with. I mean, there's obviously like controversial teachings. You know in the Bible that Jesus has taught and I think that all of those things or the contentious issues of today that people take from the Bible, you know, like, if you believe it, then you have to believe it, right, you know. That's kind of the way that it is.
Nate Williams:So you would say that you can't really trust the Gospels to give us an accurate depiction of Jesus, the person, jesus, the historical figure. So we really don't know a lot about him, would you say that? And so it's not that you like him or don't like him, you just think what we have about him is flawed and we don't really know him and what he was about. Is that accurate?
Hunter:Yeah, I would say so, but I think that, again, like his teachings in the Bible, I don't really have any problem with that.
Nate Williams:Gotcha Okay. So definitely you wouldn't consider him like Lord and Savior, because that would make you a Christian Right. And I guess from the Bible would you say something along the lines of what we read in the Bible, regardless of the historical figure he's like, would you say a good teacher, good preacher, kind of. Would you agree with that?
Hunter:Yeah, I would say he's a radical teacher, definitely subverting expectations of the time.
Nate Williams:Okay, Controversial figure and okay radical, I think I'll. Hey, I'm a Christian, I'll agree with those things. So anyways, Hunter, that concludes the questions I have. You're welcome to ask any if you have any on your end, but I really appreciate you coming on with me having this conversation. I know that you live far away and I don't get to see you in person as much as I'd like, but thank you for doing this.
Hunter:Yeah, of course it's a pleasure. Thanks for having me. Absolutely, I'm glad that I kind of collect everything.
Nate Williams:Yeah, yeah. Well, friends, more videos will come out as time goes on. Be on the lookout. Like, share, subscribe, let other people know. Again, very thankful for Hunter and we'll talk with you later.